Baltimore

A big part of the problem is that there really is a lot of sympathy/understanding/justification for criminal activity in poor urban areas.

There aren't a lot of jobs, or economic activity. Gangs and the drug trade are prevalent, and kids get involved at an early age.

Everyone knows someone in jail, on bail, in a gang, or who deals drugs. And, when it's your 16-year-old, or 18-year-old, of course you don't want them tied up in the criminal justice system. Of course you want him to have the time/opportunity to out grow the criminal behavior. Of course you understand the anger.

"He's no angel," might as well be the motto for youth in this culture.

Parents don't want their kids locked up. This isn't hard to understand. So, in many cases the police are the bad guys. But, what's the alternative?

 

Because the guys that jump turnstiles, or smoke weed in public, or drink in public have no regard for the law, and that correlates to other criminal behavior:

When Rudy Giuliani appointed Bill Bratton to head the police back in 1994, among the first moves the new commissioner made was to go after subway turnstile jumpers.

For in his time as head of the city’s transit police, Bratton had learned that many of those arrested for fare-beating weren’t first-offenders or kids out on a lark.

Many turned out to have criminal records or outstanding warrants. Detaining them often helped authorities prevent other crimes and help get career criminals off the streets.

Melissa hops the turnstile | New York Post


As Malanga reports, Giuliani transformed a city whose budget and workforce were larger than all but five or six states. He and police chief William Bratton famously cracked down first on quality-of-life crimes like panhandling and public urination. Teenagers who leaped over the turnstiles at subway entrances were arrested — a departure from the practice under Mayor David Dinkins. Giuliani later quipped that the police under his predecessor had become “highly skilled observers of crime.” Those turnstile jumpers turned out to possess a huge number of illegal guns, which were confiscated, and criminals throughout the city discovered that the New York police were breathing down their necks. The number of murders dropped from 1,960 in Dinkins’s final year in office to 640 in Giuliani’s last year. The overall crime rate dropped 64 percent, to levels not seen since the 1960s.

New York Conservative | National Review Online

 

So if that is so effective, we should go after white-collar criminals the same way.

Wall Street scammers who block the fire hydrant with their limo bumper should cool off in the clink for a weekend so they can't do any damage for a couple days.

 

#SuperhelpfulHottake

 

Some administrations pat themselves on their backs for getting criminals off the street when they have a very narrow and selective vision of criminals. It's the low-hanging fruit method of policing.

 

The so-called "broken windows" theory of policing is far more complex than YF has described it. It has little to do with getting "the criminals" out of circulation and more to do with increasing the degree to which orderliness and law-abiding are the norm. As I understand it, the theory has enjoyed some empirical support, but this support is arguable.

 

Well. it's really not a question of "if". It's been proven to be effective.

I really don't get this "life isn't fair" routine, and the idea that if we don't somehow "punish" the rich, then we shouldn't enforce any other rules in society.

Now, if you want to argue that small offenses should be taken seriously by the SEC, CFTC, etc., then I'm with you. Crimes are often a matter of opportunity. If someone's shown that they are unethical, by committing a small infraction, there's no reason to believe they wouldn't commit a larger crime/fraud if given the opportunity.

And, it's the same reason why we need to be able to fire shitty teachers and cops when they commit small infarctions. If a cop has shown that he will abuse his power and/or treat the community with contempt, then we need to have the means to remove him from the force.

The same civil service rules that the left fight for are responsible for leaving terrible cops and teachers on the job, and contributing to the failures of urban life.

 

Proven is probably a little strong. I think that DQ's summation is fairly accurate of the evidence out there. There's supporting evidence and evidence arguing it.

 

Well, I think it's both, and didn't mean to exclude the other side of the coin from my reference to it.

A well ordered society breads respect for the law, for property, and for your fellow citizens.

The opposite is also true. When everywhere you look you see broken windows, drug dealing, drinking in public, etc., it's much harder to raise your kids with a respect for the law. And, so. lawlessness becomes the norm.

It also makes every enforcement of the law seem arbitrary, which breeds contempt.

 

OK. Bring some evidence against it to the table, and let's discuss it.

Ace asked what the point of arresting turnstile jumpers was. I presented it. You are welcome to present an opposing view.

 

And, look, I think we all know this is true.

Something as simple as littering breeds more littering. If there is trash scattered, that is never swept up, more will accumulate. People don't feel bad about contributing to it, because they know no one cares, and that their contribution to it doesn't make much of a difference.

In a tidy area, people are much less likely to throw a bottle or can into the bushes.

It's also why it's important to paint over or scrub away graffiti right away. If you don't, you just invite more.

 

To be more accurate, there's supporting evidence for the theory, and there are very credible arguments both for and against interpreting that evidence as favorable to the theory.