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President Trump: The NEW one and only politics thread

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Moderator1, Nov 12, 2016.

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  1. Della9250

    Della9250 Well-Known Member


     
  2. 3_Octave_Fart

    3_Octave_Fart Well-Known Member

    BTE's premise was that few are honest enough to admit to a mistake in the voting booth.
    I have no skin in the game, I am not paid to vote-- I can easily admit elected officials, coaches, free agents, directors and actors whom I thought would work and floundered spectacularly.
     
  3. 2muchcoffeeman

    2muchcoffeeman Well-Known Member

    Key difference that you’re blithely overlooking: She is alleged to have done this not as an individual shitposting on social media but instead as the agent of a hostile foreign government acting to undermine the United States’ national election process and its duly elected government for its own ends.
     
  4. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Nothing blithe about what I posted. Sorry you read it that way.

    She was charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Not with what you posted. The indictment makes no link to the Russian government that I saw, as much as we can all conclude that she was working at the behest of Putin to try to foment discord here. Which actually shouldn't be criminal either, to be honest. We are all bombarded with information, much of it propaganda, all day long. You fall into an Orwellian trap when you try to regulate information because someone decided one message is good and another isn't.

    What she was charged with was running troll farms and social media and e-mail campaigns. Or as the indictment put it, she is accused of trying to "create and amplify divisive social media and political content."

    I am honestly not comfortable with that kind of prosecution, and I don't think others should be. I don't want the government deciding who the good guys are and who the bad ones are, or what information is valid or what isn't. That has serious free speech ramifications.

    The way to deal with Putin's dirty tricks isn't to randomly criminalize information by calling it a conspiracy to defraud. You fight propaganda with truth and vigilance and with people learning to be skeptical when they read something. That is how free and open societies should work.
     
    Just the facts ma am likes this.
  5. 2muchcoffeeman

    2muchcoffeeman Well-Known Member

    She is charged with conspiracy to commit acts of information warfare against the United States. Sorry, bub, but that’s what’s going on here — acts of war by a hostile foreign government. And yes, this is a perfectly valid way to fight against that.
     
  6. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    Ragu, conspiracy to defraud the US is a legal phrase used in indictments for all sorts of crimes. In this case, assisting the efforts of a foreign government to covertly influence American elections. It's not like they took out a TB ad gibing the Russian point of view.
     
  7. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    The indictment doesn't implicate the Russian government. They are alleging unlawful foreign interference. She is alleged to have been the money person for something called “Project Lakhta,” which they said is a Russian umbrella effort funded by an oligarch named Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin and two companies he controls, Concord Management and Consulting LLC, and Concord Catering. According to them, Project Lakhta targeted foreign audiences in the United States, members of the European Union, and Ukraine, among others.

    The nature of their disinformation isn't the point. When you pursue this kind of prosecution, you have to be honest about what you are doing. You are criminalizing speech. And we're supposed to be better than that. If we don't like Putin fucking with us, this is not the way to act. Fight disinformation with TRUTHFUL information. That is how its done in a free and open society. When you start criminalizing speech -- foreigners or otherwise -- you are undermining a core value that is supposed to define us. It's supposedly what makes us better than Putin.
     
  8. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    You seem to not be getting the point. Federal election law forbids foreign citizens, let alone governments, from doing things that are totally legal for US citizens. They can't vote, obviously. They can't donate to campaigns (free speech as defined by the Supreme Court). And they can't do what the defendant is charged with in this case. This is not a free speech issue. It's a free and fair elections issue.
     
    2muchcoffeeman and Inky_Wretch like this.
  9. Inky_Wretch

    Inky_Wretch Well-Known Member

    How do you do that when disinformation is so prevalent and institutions that deal in truth have been slandered so much people dismiss them? If Fox News opens tomorrow morning's show by saying "Happy Sunday, Saturday was cancelled" a few million Americans will believe it.
     
  10. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I understand the law -- they are trying to get her on any expenditures she made that had to do with their activities. But I am saying that that kind of law shouldn't be on the books. It has put us in the position of effectively prosecuting speech. And I will stand by my opinion that that is a very slippery slope. For what it's worth, I also think anyone should be free to spend their money however they want with regard to political activity. I find most efforts at "campaign finance regulation" to be ridiculous, and kind of unAmerican.
     
    Just the facts ma am likes this.
  11. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    Laws restricting foreign activity in American elections have been on the books for a long time. There may be a slope, but it seems kind of sticky. There is very very little regulation of AMERICAN election activity. If you or anyone else wanted to set up what the Russians did (and more than one American has) they're free to do so. They just can't take money from Russia, France or Lichtenstein to do it.
     
    2muchcoffeeman likes this.
  12. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    Fine. But what's the point?

    She's in Russia. She stands no better chance of "facing justice" in America than Bill Browder does of "facing justice" in Russia.

    Quit wasting our time and resources over this shit. It's been going on for decades.
     
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