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Muh Muh Muh My Corona (virus)

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Twirling Time, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. Neutral Corner

    Neutral Corner Well-Known Member

    I'm not interested in getting drawn into this one, but I have to ask. How could I protect myself against an airline which cuts corners in an FAA free country? I mean, other than not getting on the plane of an airline that repeatedly crashes?
     
    Inky_Wretch likes this.
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I'll give an example. ... Are you familiar with those tags on every electric thing you own near the plug that say, "UL certified"?

    In the late 1800s, early 1900s, people didn't expect some government bureaucracy to play these kinds of roles.

    When electric items started to become commonplace, there was a problem with some of them being dangerous and starting fires. And the insurance companies were getting hammered on claims and manufacturer liability issues.

    That led to them wanting to assess risk of things, which meant having to test items as they were manufactured.

    Which led to them coming up with safety standards.

    Which led to them introducing the "UL Mark" to indicate that products had passed their testing and met their standards.

    Manufacturers were all but forced to subscribe to those safety standards for liability reasons (they couldn't get insured without it), and because consumers started to recognize the tag and felt more confident in the products.

    Today we just take it for granted. Most people have no clue why the tag is there. But left to our own devices, on big things this kind of stuff tends to take care of itself. As I said, nobody is going to get on an airplane without feeling reasonably sure that the plane and its maintenance meets some standard. And the insurers of those airlines, even if you had an airline being run by a jerk who would do something unsafe, are not going to insure any airline that isn't doing the kind of maintenance we get at a ridiculous cost via a bloated and corrupt bureaucracy that exists to justify its existence.
     
    HanSenSE likes this.
  3. Jerry-atric

    Jerry-atric Well-Known Member

    They would put a tag on the airplane’s wing, poster @Neutral Corner. It is simple!
     
  4. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Wasn't at least part of the problem with the 737 Max that the FAA allowed Boeing to partially certify their own plane?
     
  5. Neutral Corner

    Neutral Corner Well-Known Member

    Underwriter's Laboratory. I never knew where the name came from. Thanks.

    After a plane crashes, the FAA spends literally thousands of man hours analyzing why. They collect every tiny piece of the plane that they can and reassemble it to see what story that tells. They check the black box recordings. They minutely inspect for things like counterfeit parts which are not actually aircraft grade.

    Who is going to step into that role, how will they fund it, and why should I trust an industry aligned group to do it? How many people did the tobacco industry kill with their lies? They eventually got sued and lost a ton of money, but that didn't bring back the smokers who died agonizing deaths. Add that the tobacco settlement money was often used by the states for budget priorities that had nothing to do with tobacco.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
  6. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    So let me get this right ... in a conversation meander prompted by one of the most intellectually insipid "TOTALLY OWNS! SLAYS!" gambits that mankind has ever contrived, to which responses have gravitated to "THE JUNGLE! AIRPLANES CRASHING! FOOD POISONING!" ... my sarcasm betrays a "no middle ground" perspective.

    Ohhhhhkaaaay ...
     
  7. Justin_Rice

    Justin_Rice Well-Known Member


    Hey at least we agree!

    Some level of regulation is necessary, because companies will not always choose "customer safety" over "increased profits."
     
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    You are kind of making the point that the FAA didn't protect people all that well.

    Now consider if people hadn't been lulled into a false sense of complacency that some benevolent hand is always protecting them? Would the 737 Max thing have happened?

    I don't have the answer. But I can say with reasonable certainty that the FAA doesn't protect people any better than people would protect themselves on their own (and it may cause actual harm to the extent that it breeds corruption), and on top of it, it is economically destructive, because it draws capital away from more economically productive things, as it gets bigger and bigger and more powerful (the way wasteful bureaocracies do).
     
  9. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    I'm also making the point that left to its own devices, Boeing put a plane in service it shouldn't have.
     
    Jerry-atric and Mngwa like this.
  10. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    In a case like this, I think the tension between regulation and profit, government and business is a good thing. It's where we find equilibrium.
     
    Neutral Corner likes this.
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, Boeing did. It was also ENABLED by our government, due to what you can only call corruption. And there was no other check really, because. ... well, everyone assumes that the FAA is some white knight that we need to protect us, even as our government shifted a chunk of the liability for the Max from those responsible to all of us, creating textbook moral hazard.

    Imagine if the some bureaucrats who bare no financial cost for enabling Boeing didn't have that kind of power? I mean, what if a couple of insurers were on the hook for Boeing's behavior and were bankrupt and gone today (along with Boeing) as a result? Do you think the incentives might be different for the next Boeing?
     
  12. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    I don't know. Boeing probably should have been left to go bankrupt, but the pandemic saved it.

    What incentivized Boeing to produce an unsafe plane in the first place?

    There's a chicken and egg thing at work here.

    And again, the tension between safety and money, regulation and deregulation, business and government, is where people actually live.
     
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