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The Economy

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by TigerVols, May 14, 2020.

  1. SFIND

    SFIND Well-Known Member

    Thoughts on this @The Big Ragu?
     
  2. 2muchcoffeeman

    2muchcoffeeman Well-Known Member

  3. TrooperBari

    TrooperBari Well-Known Member

    While I would hesitate to include myself among "the smart people", I'll have a go. First -- a celebrity finance type tells people to freak out and buy precious metals and bitcoin? What fresh, reasonable advice that sounds in no way almost verbatim what people who insist the Fed is a Ponzi scheme tell people to do with their money. That "article" reads like someone at Moneywise had a byline quota to hit and found an appropriately apocalyptic tweet with decent SEO.

    As for Evergrande, the consensus appears to be that this is not China's "Lehman moment". There are outliers in both directions -- there are doomsayers (who seem curiously clustered in the West) like Kiyosaki who proclaim worldwide turmoil ahead, as well as Kevin-Bacon-at-the-end-of-Animal-House types who insist everything is fine and will continue to be so. Mostly, though, there seems to be broad agreement on the following: 1) Evergrande is going under; 2) the central government is going to step in to make sure it's an orderly collapse with minimal disruption to the markets; 3) that stepping in will not take the form of an officially acknowledged "bailout"; 4) there will be some pain in the stock and bond markets; and 5) any ripple effects from the collapse are unlikely to spread too far beyond the Chinese markets.

    There are some important differences from the run-up to the Lehman collapse. The government and market-watchers have known Evergrande was in trouble for months, if not longer. It tapped the bond markets 40 times in four years while it went beyond property into electric vehicles, bottled water, and more -- to stay nothing of its lavish spending on its soccer team. Also, the central government has no obstacles to or compunction against taking all fiscal, legal, and governance measures necessary to ensure stability in the markets and society. There will be no dithering or obstructivist legislature that gets in the way of Beijing doing the needful. A bailout is all but inconceivable given the visible legacy of Japan refusing to let firms collapse after its "bubble economy" popped -- allowing zombie companies to drag down its economy for decades -- on top of all the usual arguments against bailouts (precedent, moral contagion, etc.) and pouring good money after bad at a time of slowing growth and rising prices.

    There's bound to be some disruption in the markets outside China. Investors are skittish and fearful by nature, after all, and the 1997-98 Asian currency crisis showed Asia can look awfully murky and samey when viewed from Wall Street. Given the widespread knowledge of Evergrande's troubles, the proven policy options available to handle its collapse, and the central government's fanatical commitment to ensuring stability above all else, it seems highly unlikely that Evergrande going under will result in the "biggest crash in world history". But, hey, maybe the "Rich Dad" guy is actually the smartest one in the room and sees something everyone else doesn't.

    Evergrande: funds see ‘controlled demolition’, default, state takeover
    Evergrande default ‘unlikely’ to threaten China’s banking system
    Evergrande is not China’s Lehman moment, but it spells trouble for growth
     
    2muchcoffeeman and OscarMadison like this.
  4. wicked

    wicked Well-Known Member

    Thanks. My knowledge of the Asian markets could fit inside a bottle cap, so I appreciate the perspective.
     
  5. garrow

    garrow Well-Known Member

  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    The amount of debt that has created the mirage of growth in China is enormous. It's not just a China story. This has broadly been the story of the whole world -- first leading into the financial crisis and the debt bomb stupid central bankers created, and then their doubling down in the aftermath to prop it up. ... which has required debt levels that are much, much bigger now, with debt markets around the world having been hijacked to keep yields negative in real terms to keep the whole thing going.

    China matters because the debt levels are that huge. ... and the regime there may be more determined to take reflexive short-term actions that may make things even worse, in order to create the appearance of stability. Evergrande itself isn't the whole problem, even though the amount of debt it represents SHOULD make people's eyes bulge. It's just the tip of iceberg. Whether the debt bomb explodes tomorrow with Evergrande as the catalyst, or it explodes later because something else causes them to lose control, it's going to happen. As has been the case for the last decade and a half, the longer this goes on, the more distortion it is going to require, which means the payback later on just gets worse and worse with each day they hold off the eventual payback for the stupidity of the past. We have created mountains of debt, and the only way to now keep massive defaults from happening is by distorting markets to allow all of that debt to rollover by the creation of even MORE debt. And this has been going on for a very long time now, unfortunately.

    Robert Kiyosaki is a huckster, and there are a lot of hucksters out there selling the same story. They are not wrong about the STORY largely. What they are wrong about is their ability to tell you when the end of the insanity comes. Ignore the Kiyosakis of the world and listen to people who aren't selling you crap. Someone like Kyle Bass who has been all over China for years. The amount of leverage in China right now is at least 3 times higher than it was in the U.S. when the housing crisis created a financial crisis. This kind of thing has played out throughout history -- it is ALWAYS a leverage story that creates financial crises. And it is always a monetary story; in more recent times ,things central banks did over periods of years that most people weren't atuned to to create growth fantasies coming back to create devastation; payback for the mirage of growth they pulled forward. Focusing just on China right now would miss the point. The whole world has gone bonkers. In the U.S. we are running up trillions of dollars of public and private debt -- right now they are debating multi trillion dollar spending bills -- that would never be a possibility without a central bank having completely hijacked our debt markets to make money cheaper than free. We are just creating money out of thin air and borrowing against it to create leverage. ... and spending. There is so much malinvestment because of the idiocy and it is all going to end up with a lot perceived wealth evaporating at some point.

    It's just absurd to think that isn't going to end up badly in all of the places that have gone down that path, and unfortunately, it is a worldwide thing. The only question -- and Robert Kiyosaki doesn't have the answer -- is what schemes will they come up with to prop it up and how long can they do it before they lose control of it. In China, they can resort to capital controls (i.e. -- trying to foist off the losses on foreign investors to hold off collapse), forced government interventions and monetary shenanigans way more easily than we or the EU will (even though I am astounded by the powers hte Fed and ECB have taken over the last decade and a half without any pushback), because it's a dictatorship. But broadly? China's growth year after year for a VERY long time was huge. It was largely a fantasy -- they were just pumping money fresh off a printing press in and creating housing and airports and "infrastucture" projects that weren't being dictated by actual demand. Right now? China is growing more slowly than the U.S. is. That hasn't happened in a very long time. And without the mirage of growth to create a narrative, it makes it much harder to keep up confidence in the people who are holding all of the debt that needs to default.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
    SFIND likes this.
  7. WriteThinking

    WriteThinking Well-Known Member

    Closer to home and more basically, I do think the economy is going to end up being a real problem at some point for Biden, as it is for many Presidents.

    My father always had a simple view of presidencies that I didn't always agree with, but I could get his point: Generally speaking, if they were in office during good times economically, most everything else was forgiven. To a large extent, that is often true.

    Following that thinking, if Biden doesn't do some smart things with regard to the joblessness/work picture -- whatever its current causes -- besides keep handing out periodic found money to people, as well as do something to change/get control of soaring gas and food prices, people are going to end up not being happy with him. In fact, if people would, or had, forgotten about Trump by now, I think a precipitous fall from grace would've already happened.

    As it is, I think we're seeing it starting to occur.
     
  8. garrow

    garrow Well-Known Member

  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Awesome strategy. Take your supposedly self-sufficient government agency that is supposed to operate on a P&L basis but which burns through billions of dollars a year and needs to keep tapping the Treasury. ... and try to compete with Walmart to cash poor people's checks. Did it occur to anyone that Walmart does it cheaper, they offer greater optionality in how you can get your money, and even if they didn't do it more cheaply, they are way more convenient for 99 percent of the target audience because it's a place those people are shopping in all the time already?
     
  10. TigerVols

    TigerVols Well-Known Member

    Walmart sales stamps, too. Should the USPS stop that?
     
  11. sgreenwell

    sgreenwell Well-Known Member

    The concept of USPS as a bank to me is just bizarre. All of the ones in my area are already swamped with the existing work they have to do. There are literally hundreds of banks and credit unions within a 30-minute drive for me. I could understand if you're talking about rural outposts, but otherwise, it's just another thing for an already overloaded system to worry about.
     
  12. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Walmart doesn't profit from selling stamps. If you factor in the labor and logistics costs involved, I am sure they look at it as something of a loss leader -- a convenience for customers to get them in the store to buy stuff Walmart profits from -- even if it is insignificant to them.

    If the USPS stopped selling stamps at physical locations and left it to Walmart and Target and other large retailers, presumably without the price-fixed 55 cent price tag (or whatever it is now) the USPS has slapped on a postage stamp, Walmart and Target would be free to raise the price they charge -- perhaps buying the stamp from the USPS for 55 cents and selling it for 60 cents. Or they might just choose to continue to use it as a loss leader the way they currently do. It's tough to say.

    But it's nothing like a check cashing service, which is an industry that operates in a competitive environment. The USPS is uncompetitive in everything it attempts to do because its cost structure is absurdly uncompetitive. Politicians have their hands all over it, which has meant things like wages and benefits that aren't determined in an actual marketplace. In the case of those benefits, large health care and retirement costs were never actually funded (another hallmark of how the government operates), which is why the USPS bleeds money and is forced to "borrow" from the Treasury to keep going. As a business model it amounts to this: Spend way more than you have to to operate and charge way too little for your product to meet your costs. Expanding operations into very competitive businesses only makes sense for a politician who is armed with executive orders and can pretend that the losses don't exist.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
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