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The Economy

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by TigerVols, May 14, 2020.

  1. Justin_Rice

    Justin_Rice Well-Known Member


    What's the real unemployment number and are there ANY commonly used economic indicators which you don't consider "fake"?
     
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    To get a clearer look, I'd probably start with the stuff that John Williams is doing at Shadowstats.

    Shadow Government Statistics - Home Page
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Of course there would be a reason to do contextual seasonal adjustments, but their models have gotten convoluted way beyond simple measures.

    On top of it, you are giving absolutely no context, when you are continually creating new adjustments (that people only find out about on the day of release, and only those with the wherewithal to actually read through their stuff and decode their methodology) that just send the numbers jerking around so that what you thought you knew just a month before suddenly is being presented as the exact opposite.

    And none of that even addresses their basic definitions. ... about what is and isn't a job (and how they double count in some instances) , about who is looking and who is discouraged, etc.
     
  4. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Just to give an example of how arbitrary what they are doing has become in practice. ...

    Jan Hatzius at Goldman Sachs used to be the most consistent forecaster on Wall Street. Year after year. He predicted a loss of 250K jobs last month. The number came in at a gain of 467K. That number was 4 times the median consensus estimate! These are people with the money and resources to survey on their own and mirror the work as well or better than the BLS. There is something seriously wrong isn't there?

    There may or may not be anything nefarious going on with the adjustments they did (or the times in the past this has come up), but if there isn't, then the question is, what is the purpose of what you are doing, when you took December's number from 199K to 510K, and November from 249K to 647K? And why should anyone have thought the numbers were meaningful in November and December or that the new numbers are meaningful today, because who knows what you are going to come at us with in March?

    And if this is the pile of droppings that the Fed supposedly bases it's own alchemy on, wouldn't we be just as well served by central-planning done via dart and dart board?
     
  5. Brooklyn Bridge

    Brooklyn Bridge Well-Known Member

    If only there was some European common market that the UK could join to guarantee the movement of goods and people throughout the Continent.
     
    garrow and 2muchcoffeeman like this.
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Um, there are countries within the EU that are printing inflation number north of 10 percent year over year right now.
     
  7. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    I have no idea whether he's actually mirroring the data-gathering work of the BLS or not. I doubt very seriously, though, that those whose efforts led to the "median consensus estimate" do. The BLS report is based on a random survey of 100K+ entities ... There aren't millions of entities (business or government) being surveyed monthly.

    I suspect strongly that he, and they, merely are forecasting the BLS report, which is quite a different thing from actually coming up with a report. Stipulating that that's what they actually do, their mis-forecasting the report shouldn't be taken that the report was erroneous.

    It should be emphasized, however, that I am not engaging in any broader discussion than of the generation of the actual report. Maybe big players (e.g., the Fed) shouldn't rely too much on such reports. Further, if that's the case, then maybe such reports shouldn't even be generated. Numbers can be a messy business, and numbers over time even messier. Nevertheless, that X thought the report was gonna say Y when the report actually said Z (even if there's a HUGE gap between Y and Z) doesn't move the needle much for me.
     
    Hermes likes this.
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    You can't throw away a 3-sigma beat and just say, "the generation of the actual report" is all I care about. Well, maybe you can, because you don't care about this. But anyone trying to give these reports significance can't do that.

    The numbers aren't the problem. But for the purposes of this conversation, an ever-changing methodology thrown over the numbers is demonstrating just how drastically their adjustments change the employment picture (in both directions) from the non-adjusted data. And curiously, in ways that benefit the people who are creating those numbers.

    You said there is nothing nefarious going on (at least nothing necessarily nefarious), and I actually would guess that as it relates to this particular report the insane revisions weren't some nefarious thing entirely, at least. ... I think they started out trying to do nefarious things a long time ago that they thought would give them "better" numbers, and over time they turned what they were doing into a soup they can't control. And now they are just flailing. They got F'd by Covid, and were adjusting their numbers based on patterns that were no longer all that predictable. That is obvious. So this month they are laying a "Covid adjustment" over the count, and voila, 2.8 million jobs lost now = 467,000 jobs gained. There has never been a seasonal adjusment anywhere near this magnitude on a January number. We are zipcodes away. Apply the typical adjustment applied in January over the last 10 years and the number would have been about 165K. ... i.e. in the ballpark of the consensus that was being forecast.

    Now someone can come back and argue that their new seasonal adjustment is warranted, but then why didn't they do this immediately after those huge numbers they reported over the summer (i.e. -- Biden was talking about all the jobs he is creating), which are now being adjusted down by more than a million jobs (but nary a peep now), while they are focusing on the more recent numbers (August to December was revised up by 817K jobs), the last two months turned on their head?

    Yeah, I am being cynical. But when you see this shit over and over again. ... At worst, the cynicism is warranted, but at best they are chasing their asses.
     
  9. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    I never said "there is nothing nefarious going on." For all I know Doddering Ol' Joe's on the phone to the statisticians at BLS twice a day. I'm just saying this "beat" that's got you all up in arms (by the way, whence comes your "3-sigma"?) doesn't really move the needle for me. Like you, I'm cynical ... and when I see "this shit over and over again," that starts entering into my decision-making.
     
  10. Justin_Rice

    Justin_Rice Well-Known Member

    I promise: Government is way, way, way too inept at doing the simple shit to get away with the nefarious things.

    Ol' Joe would make the call, and then there would have to be 74 meetings to establish the process and decide how they want to format the documentation and perform the CM plus Agile vs. Waterfall for Operation Fake The Numbers.

    ... and then the idea fairy would show up, and they'd be back to square one.

    "Hey guys - wouldn't it be great if ...."
     
    wicked and doctorquant like this.
  11. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    You just made @Starman 's list ...
     
  12. Justin_Rice

    Justin_Rice Well-Known Member

    Yeah Starman might be a great person in real life, but he's a tad unhinged when it comes to politics ...

    I'm serious though: Having worked the last six years around government, that is my standard response when people start espousing government conspiracies.

    If 9/11 had been an inside job, it would have been 1/15/05 - at least four years late, wayyyyyyyy over budget, rife with infighting, and one-quarter as effective.
     
    Inky_Wretch likes this.
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