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Ukraine Always Get What You Want

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by TigerVols, Feb 12, 2022.

  1. FileNotFound

    FileNotFound Well-Known Member

    What, exactly, are the Russians’ interests?
     
  2. Driftwood

    Driftwood Well-Known Member

    Not gonna lie. As a kid, until Darth Vader came along, Brezhnev was pretty much the boogeyman!
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Also in 1991, more than 90 percent of Ukrainian citizens in a referendum said that Ukraine should be an independent country. You want to cite that one today?

    Which is precisely why Gorbachev did the referendum you are referencing, in the first place. It was a hail mary to try to gain authority to negotiate to save something that was already dead. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania had already declared themselves overwhelmingly in favor of independence prior to that referendum, Georgia declared independence after the referendum, and another six of the Soviet countries didn't participate in the referendum (because they would have voted for independence).

    That referendum amounted to asking people in Russia "Do you want pet unicorns and chocolate for everyone."
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
    Spartan Squad and Woody Long like this.
  4. Inky_Wretch

    Inky_Wretch Well-Known Member

    Aside from being the world’s largest organized crime state and supporting white suprematism worldwide?
     
  5. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    --- Preservation of current political regime and minimizing chances of Western interference in Russia’s domestic affairs.
    --- A relentless quest for respect. For better or worse, Russia considers itself as an eternal great power, and traditional understanding of great power status involves dominance in one’s neighborhood/region. That basically means respect to Russia is measured by the extent of Western acceptance of Moscow’s interests in the post-Soviet space. We demand the same, so no big surprise there.
    --- To gain an equal status vis-à-vis other major international players. Moscow considers that its role in European affairs has been marginalized by Western countries, whereas throughout the history --- again, for better or worse --- Moscow has played a crucial role in European security.
    --- The ability to conduct business unimpeded --- such as transporting gas via Nordstream 2 without the U.S. sanctioning everybody who helps them achieve this goal.

    I'd be delighted to . . . since my wife was one of the 90 percent who voted for the fucking thing. Said to me six days ago:

    "We were lied to. We were told the only thing that would change was that the money made in Ukraine would stay in Ukraine and not go to Moscow. They said nothing else would change. They said Russian language would still be the language of the land and that Ukrainian would remain fringe dialect. There was no nationalism, no animosity toward Russia --- until NATO agents started pouring in a couple of years later and started stirring a bunch of nationalist ideas among the people. A West-supported color revolution followed a year later, and then everything started going to shit."
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
  6. dixiehack

    dixiehack Well-Known Member

    Maybe Russia could suck it up and put in the hard work of not being a drunken, paranoid kleptocracy that preys on perceived weakness in neighbors.
     
  7. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    That which can't go on forever won't, no matter who's running the show.
     
    2muchcoffeeman likes this.
  8. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    I believe it could have, though, through proper tweaking, perhaps more similar to China's model. Hell, the state survived far worse than stagnation throughout its often-brutal history.

    Somebody here (maybe LancyHoward) posted an article once that explained Russia's problem clearly --- that while they are great at invention, they are terrible at innovation. And innovation is where money and influence are made.
     
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    You married Vladimir Putin?!?

    92 + percent of the Ukranian people didn't think of the language the majority of its citizens speak as a "fringe" language, nor were they voting for anything except the proposition that they wanted out of the Soviet Union and they wanted their own independent country. But that's quite a narrative your wife has created.

    Animosity toward Russia? Russia invaded their country and has caused incredible hardship and devastation. ... when they pose (and have never posed) zero threat to Russia.

    Whatever you call "nationalism" has about as much to do with Russia, as Canadians being commited to their own country has to do with the United States.
     
    2muchcoffeeman and dixiehack like this.
  10. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    It's no "narrative" that promises made in the run-up to an election differ from reality after the election. Happens all the time. My then-20-year-old wife just happened to be a little more optimistic and a hell of a lot less jaded at that time. She basically thought, "some of the bad things will get better, and all of the good things will continue." Instead, for the next decade everything got worse. In 2000 she inherited her uncle's apartment in St. Petersburg, acquired Russian citizenship and never regretted it.
     
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Putting aside that crafted narrative that "they were lied to," and 92+ percent of the population nonsensically thought they were voting for independence-light somehow (where they would really be Russian, but not really Russian, but really Russian). ... Why do you embrace that narrative (everyone was lied to and thought they were voting for something other than what they actually voted for). ... but no such "everyone was lied to" narrative around the 1991 Soviet referendum (which excluded a bunch of countries that wanted out)?

    I'll also point out the obvious. ... that there is a huge difference. Asking Ukrainians if they wanted independence was something wholly possible and within the grasp of Ukraine at that point (and it became a reality as a result). Asking (mostly) Russians if they wanted the failed Soviet Union to stay intact wasn't possible any longer. The USSR did not have the might or money anymore to roll tanks into multiple countries and squash rebellion, and as Gorbachev found out, there was no negotiation to be had. The USSR was already dead.
     
  12. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    Because no one ever got to see the results of the March 1991 referendum. Sure, it could have been a bunch of hogwash. But continuation of the state meant continuation of stability (guaranteed jobs, government pensions) that vanished when the USSR dissolved. Kiev senior citizen expecting his pension check from Moscow suddenly found his mailbox empty. Expectant mothers found themselves without the three years' maternity leave they had grown accustomed to. And so on.

    The U.S. has a remarkably stable history. We take it for granted. "Stability" never ranks high among things Americans are seeking. Because it's always there. For Soviet citizens, stability was everything. It's why they viewed elections as "don't let things get worse" instead of our typical "now things are going to be so much better!" optimism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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