2023 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

You listed two OF and three 1B. The standard for the HoF at those positions is just so much higher. Like, Garvey is 51st in JAWS among 1B. Rolen is 10th at 3B. Rolen also won a WS and eight gold gloves, and was also a seven time all-star and ROTY. Not his fault the World Series was a gentleman's sweep of the Tigers that wasn't particularly memorable, but he's arguably as significant from a narrative / history of baseball standpoint as those other guys, except that he didn't play in New York or L.A. (Or, have a cool nickname like Cobra.)

 

Rolen went 0-15 in the 2004 WS against Boston. Career postseason stats are a .220 BA and .302 OBP. Not exactly Mr. October there. And as a Tiger fan, I don't remember him putting on the kind of defensive display at 3B in the '06 WS that we associated with Brooks Robinson in '69 or Graig Nettles in '78. Not his fault -- the Tigers were whiffing and hitting dribblers the whole time whenever their pitcher weren't throwing the ball all over the damn infield.

Again -- I don't have a huge issue with him being in. But if we're going by WAR, well, Sweet Lou has a 75 WAR (#51 of all time) and everyone above him who isn't either banned, hypocritically shunned for PED suspicion or not yet eligible is in. As are most of the 50 that come after him. And if we're going by defense putting a decent hitter over the top, then Andruw Jones and Dwight Evans have a lot to say about that. I think personally peak value needs to be considered a lot more. At no point was Rolen anywhere near the player that Mattingly, Murphy, Hernandez and Parker were in their primes. Those were legitimate superstars. And it's not like Rolen was playing in obscure backwaters either, spending his career mostly in Philly and St. Louis. And while the Phillies weren't good while he was there, it's still a major baseball market. It's not like he was on the '80s Mariners or Rangers.

 

Not looking to debate, but want to point out that Garvey also won a World Series (and was in five) and won four gold gloves, and was a 10-time all-star. Plus he had an MVP.

 

Do people not realize position value? You can’t compare Rolen to a list of first basemen.

 

This was essentially one of my criteria when I voted. Against my team, I would say, "Oh no, _______ is coming up, we're doomed." "Oh no, we're facing ______ today, we're in trouble." I never said that about Rolen, nor Mussina. I did about George Foster. I guess I ranked Glaus over Rolen, too, but probably because I saw him all the time when he was on the Angels.

 

I wasn't asking specific to Rolen. That Schoenfield piece put me in mind of it.

I think the Eye Test and Defensive Metrics are a pretty closely aligning Venn Diagram, since the latter arose entirely out of the former.

Is there more value in defensive quantification? Maybe.

 

There is that, but there's another factor, one I brought up with Brooks Robinson. It's just possible that our "eye tests" are clouded by time passed. Certain player characteristics may seem more remarkable than they were.

 

I will say I've seen a lot more "shouldn't Torii Hunter be getting more love?" sentiment around today than I expected, but in general, I find it hard to get passionate about any of the people left on the ballot for next year. Some of them will get in, and that's fine, I guess, but Ichiro and Pujols are coming, and Verlander and Scherzer someday behind them, and those are capital-H hall of famers. I mean, just among SPs, I'd vote for Greinke right now over Buehrle or Pettitte, and I don't think Greinke is a lock to get in.

 

Rolen and McGriff aren't exactly the kind of headlining HOFers that will drive crowds to Cooperstown for induction weekend. I know they weren't on this ballot, but the likes of Mattingly, Murphy, Evans, Parker and Dick Allen all belonged in before Rolen and McGriff. And then there's Schilling, Bonds and Clemens, who also obviously belong. The whole thing has become a farce, but the baseball writers and the committees have both basically passed judgment on the steroid era.

 

This probably understates just how good Rolen was at his peak. In 2004, which wasn't much of an outlier during his prime, he hit .314/.409/.598, with 34 homers, and won a Gold Glove. That is easily comparable to Hernandez's best seasons.

 

As has been pointed out, why are we trying to make the current guys on the writer's ballot pay for the sins of voters from 20 years ago? Dwight Evans was last on a ballot in 1999. Since they got it wrong with A, B, C, then how is X, Y, Z getting in....it's a different electorate, doing their best. Blame the Committees just as much -- they could have put Mattingly and Murphy in a couple months ago and didn't. Whitaker can't even get his case heard by a Committee

 

They played the same position?