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The Economy

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by TigerVols, May 14, 2020.

  1. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member


    I'm not saying they're right.

    I'm saying I understand their upset.

    Speaking of VOLUNTARILY, how much does it cost a British taxpayer to keep the Royal Navy on station in the Persian Gulf defending those Shell tankers?

    Is there an opt-out on the tax form?
     
    2muchcoffeeman and Regan MacNeil like this.
  2. Justin_Rice

    Justin_Rice Well-Known Member


    When you say you "participate in it," do you mean you take delivery of natural gas? Or do you mean you extract economic rent from the production of natural gas?
     
    2muchcoffeeman and dixiehack like this.
  3. Hermes

    Hermes Well-Known Member

    If people start talking about stealing from me, as some form of punishment because they are having trouble make ends meet. ... all the nonsensical "gouging" rationales in the world don't make it right.

    So many words typed for so many years and he could’ve saved us a lot of time by just typing this sentence.

    It’s what it all comes down to.

    Everyone else is stupid and is taking his money.
     
    2muchcoffeeman and dixiehack like this.
  4. Songbird

    Songbird Well-Known Member


    So I start my mission, leave my residence
    Thinkin', "How could I get some dead presidents?"

     
    Inky_Wretch likes this.
  5. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    Agrees.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Songbird

    Songbird Well-Known Member


    the wheels are yella
    the upholstery's brown
    the dashboard's gen-you-ine leather

     
  7. micropolitan guy

    micropolitan guy Well-Known Member

    You talk about buyers and sellers of natural gas. Isn't the ultimate buyer of natural gas the consumer who uses it to heat their house, run their stoves, etc.? The ultimate buyer of natural gas has no say whatsoever in what it costs. He pays whatever the traffic will bear, after the speculators have done their hocus-pocus.
     
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    No.

    The reason the price of gas ran up to $10 per MMBtu was that the Russia - Ukraine situation took a lot of supply off the market. And demand stayed the same as is typical heading into the winter (where no one can predict the weather in advance).

    "Speculators" aren't doing "hocus pocus." They are just participants in what is a very liquid market with a lot of buyers and sellers active in it. If there is any "hocus pocus," it is supply and demand at work -- which find equilibrium prices. Speculators take the other side of the trade from hedgers who are trying to lock in prices and create predictability. You need both speculators and those hedgers in order to have a balanced market. They each play a vital role in the market and insure that there is actual price discovery determining prices.

    People have it in their heads that someone just dictates prices to people. And when the price goes up, or there is a shock, it's "gouging." The price went up because of restrained supply (Russian stopped supplying gas) and steady demand. Too many people demanding a lot of something for which there is less of it, makes the price rise. It should be obvious to people.

    After most of Europe (including, for example the German government) furiously stockpiled nat gas after Putin started to cut off Europe, and it drove the price up due to the limited supply. ... the winter has turned out to be relatively mild (so a lot of the supply is still available). At the same time, some liquid natural gas from the United States has made its way to other parts of the world, adding supply that didn't exist. As a result, in the last two months, the price of nat gas has dropped hard. ... it is down more than 75 percent from where it peaked in late August. That has nothing to do with hocus pocus or the "speculators" (who are not some monolithic group of magicians) either. Although I always laugh how when prices are rising it is "gouging" and "greed," but when prices drop the way they just did, there is never an explanation about why all those greedy people with a magical ability to dictate prices decided to lower the price by 75 percent.

    To the extent that anyone speculates in those markets, they are trying to anticipate what the market will do. They are not determining prices. Supply and demand are.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2023
  9. wicked

    wicked Well-Known Member

    There will always be a free rider "problem." I'd like to think most humans, formed over the generations where we've had functional societies, realize that they must pay their share to keep things running. Some don't or don't care. It's always been that way, whether we like it or not. And it doesn't provide corporations writ large with a get-out-of-jail-free card, which some people want.
     
    2muchcoffeeman, dixiehack and Azrael like this.
  10. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member


    Here I'll invoke the great American mid-century economist Harley Davidson:

    "Gas, grass or ass - nobody rides for free."
     
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Most goods and services don't suffer from a free rider problem. It's only a problem when something is non-excludable and non-rivalrous, meaning you can't stop people who refuse to pay from getting use or benefit from whatever it is, and it has to be something where the use of the good or service by one person doesn't reduce its availability for others.

    If I buy a car, there is no free rider problem. The car benefits me. People can't mooch off of what I paid for it to benefit from the car. When I drive it, it doesn't benefit anyone except me.

    The things that do suffer from a free rider problem are public goods. Things like a national defense or a fire department. A fire department has to be prepared to put out every fire, because you can't contain a fire to just the homes of the people who will willingly fund the fire department. The fire will spread. As a result, you end up with situations where one person will figure, "I am not going to pay. Everyone else is paying for it and I am still going to benefit." And what ends up happening is nobody will pay for it. It's why you need government (and taxation) to force people to fund things like them (non-rivalrous and non-excludable). It's the actual legitimate function of government in a free, democratic society.
     
  12. wicked

    wicked Well-Known Member

    I was referring specifically to public goods. And corporations have to pony up for those public goods too. Do you think trucking companies come anywhere close to contributing to the road infrastructure that they use, even with tolls and gas taxes? Those bridges aren’t taking much of a beating from a 2,800-pound sedan. There is no perfect system for any of this.
     
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