Meanwhile on the International front....

Azrael · Nov 11, 2023

X-Hack said: ↑

I will note that the reporting in the originally-posted Guardian article uses vague terms like "a tough line" and "a varying number." That "varying number" could be 1, 5, 10, 50, 150 -- we don't know. And "continued to take a tough line" provides no meaningful time frame and no sense of Netanyahu's counter-demands. And how long did he "continue" to do this after Oct. 27 ground operations began? A day? A week? the last 2-3 weeks? And while the article references Hamas allegedly offering up "women, children and elderly," it does not reference ALL women, children and elderly. Did they offer to release a couple of each? One of each? All of each? Not clear. The Guardian is drawing quite a snarky, arch conclusion as to the reasonableness of Netanyahu's position couched in an awful lot of vagaries. As to be expected from a well-written but basically, Corbynite publication like the Guardian.

I am not a Netanyahu supporter. I am center-left on the Israeli political spectrum and firmly in favor of a two-state solution and i have detested him for years for putting Israel's security at risk in order to court the religious right and stay in power and for turning support for America's most faithful ally into a Republican wedge issue. I also have a personal interest in the release of the hostages -- as I mentioned once in the other thread, a friend of my son's (if he's even alive) is being held hostage in Gaza (he's American-Israeli, his family emigrated to Israel when he was a little kid and his parents -- who I don't know personally but know a number of people who do -- have done a number of TV interviews and his mother spoke at the UN and their courage and poise through this nightmare has been awe-inspiring). And I have personally been frustrated with lack of movement on the hostage front and have had a lot of unease about what might happen to the hostages in a ground campaign with an unclear endgame. But the Guardian's headline and the conclusion it leads people to draw is, in two words, fucking bullshit. Not to mention that the fact that Hamas -- given its stated goals -- is willing to release anyone in exchange for a cease fire suggests very insidious reasons for wanting one -- regrouping and rearming. Which is why Netanyahu is justified in making very high demands in exchange for a cease fire. After all, let's not forget there was a cease fire in place in the pre-dawn hours of October 7. I am so sick of people in the West holding Israel to a standard that they don't hold themselves to while happily being suckered about the very nature of Hamas in service of some sort of intersectional leftist horseshit. No other nation is expected to root out a terrorist threat right next door, much less across the ocean, with tweezers. For fuck sake, the next time I hear some clown say "Israel has the right to defend itself, but..." without providing any practical, realistic explanation of what that actually means, I'm going to lose my shit, even despite my own concerns about the longterm strategic vision there. Just look at the pictures from Mosul (which a bunch of dishonest fucks repeatedly post as images from Gaza). Is that an example of U.S. warplanes "defending America?" Did the U.S. have a stronger security interest in helping the Iraqi government destroy ISIS than Israel does in destroying Hamas? And was that operation completed with no civilian casualties? Or a one-for-one ISIS terror victim/Mosul civilian casualty ratio? So many with zero underlying knowledge of the history or nature of the conflict -- and what they do get is from Tik Tok, from DSA propaganda 0r maybe from reflexively anti-Israel mainline liberal Protestant denomination pastors -- making smug statements. Useful idiots indeed. Rant over.
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Presumably anti-Netanyahu leaks like those in the Guardian are coming from inside the government.

www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1211767117/israel-netanyahu-growing-opposition-hamas-war-gaza

outofplace · Nov 11, 2023

justgladtobehere said: ↑

Obviously fewer deaths are better. But what does Hamas show if they give up the sympathetic hostages who are citizens of countries you don't want to piss off and still hold people to threaten Israel with their deaths?

It's a matter of degree. Hamas will continue to hold people hostage as a warfare tactic.
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Exactly. This also assumes that Hamas will keep its word in any negotiation. That is a foolish assumption.

Azrael · Nov 11, 2023

outofplace said: ↑

Exactly. This also assumes that Hamas will keep its word in any negotiation. That is a foolish assumption.
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Doesn't leave much room for a peace process, either.

Hard to know who and how to broker even a temporary cease fire.

The Gilad Shalit hostage swap I posted upthread took five years to negotiate.

Azrael · Nov 11, 2023

Azrael said: ↑

Doesn't leave much room for a peace process, either.

Hard to know who and how to broker even a temporary cease fire.

The Gilad Shalit hostage swap I posted upthread took five years to negotiate.
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Israel, Hamas at critical juncture in negotiations for hostage deal

Iran and Saudi Arabia, regional rivals, call for Gaza cease-fire at summit.

Batman · Nov 11, 2023

outofplace said: ↑

Exactly. This also assumes that Hamas will keep its word in any negotiation. That is a foolish assumption.
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Last I heard, Hamas also was not offering the hostages for a simple ceasefire. They want an army in return — several thousand terrorists, fighters and assorted no-goodniks that Israel has arrested and imprisoned over the years. It ought to be a non-starter to anyone with a shred of common sense.

Azrael · Nov 12, 2023

Batman said: ↑

Last I heard, Hamas also was not offering the hostages for a simple ceasefire. They want an army in return — several thousand terrorists, fighters and assorted no-goodniks that Israel has arrested and imprisoned over the years. It ought to be a non-starter to anyone with a shred of common sense.
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Again, Israel - and Netanyahu - have made that deal before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange

a 2011 agreement between Israel and Hamas to release Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in exchange for 1,027 prisoners

Azrael · Nov 12, 2023

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/12/israel-free-speech-arrests-hamas/

‘I am starting to question whether we have freedom of speech in Germany’

Azrael · Nov 12, 2023

Israel-Hamas War: A Major Gaza Hospital Is ‘Out of Service,’ Red Crescent Says

doctorquant · Nov 12, 2023

Azrael said: ↑

Again, Israel - and Netanyahu - have made that deal before.
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What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Netanyahu made a deal a dozen years ago. Having made such a deal in the past, is it unconscionable for him to not make similar deals in perpetuity?

Azrael · Nov 12, 2023

doctorquant said: ↑

What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Netanyahu made a deal a dozen years ago. Having made such a deal in the past, is it unconscionable for him to not make similar deals in perpetuity?
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I'm replying to Batman's assertion that no one with any common sense would make that deal.

That exact deal has been made.

I'm not suggesting it will be or should be made again.

doctorquant · Nov 12, 2023

Azrael said: ↑

I'm replying to Batman's assertion that no one with any common sense would make that deal.

That exact deal has been made.
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And common sense would be informed by how that exact deal worked out (apparently ... not well). So the mere fact that Netanyahu made that deal before speaks not a whit to whether it makes sense for him, or anyone else for that matter, to make it now.

Azrael · Nov 12, 2023

doctorquant said: ↑

And common sense would be informed by how that exact deal worked out (apparently ... not well). So the mere fact that Netanyahu made that deal before speaks not a whit to whether it makes sense for him, or anyone else for that matter, to make it now.
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Azrael said: ↑

I'm not suggesting it will be or should be made again.
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In fact it may be the very reason Hamas took hostages again.

But is it worth knowing that just such a deal was made in the past, by the same people, and may have led to the horrors of October 7?

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