Meanwhile on the International front....

I'm not sure it's a non sequitur, but there's been lots of confusion over Israel's tactical / strategic approach and US weapons shipments.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...sion-bombs-transfer-israel-source-2023-11-06/

The US tells Israel any ground campaign in southern Gaza must limit further civilian displacement

Israel abandons precision bombing in favour of ‘damage and destruction’

 

"In the future, instead of 'search and destroy,'
substitute the phrase 'sweep and clear.' "

 

Good guys is a relative thing, so I'd say the good guys are the ones who didn't start this with a brutal, horrific terrorist attack with a stated goal of murdering every Jewish man, woman, and child everywhere.

 

There aren’t good guys here. You have two sides deeply intrenched peoples who—for actual and exaggerated reasons—fear for their existence. They are desperate to survive and are willing to do horrible things. One side started it with tactics that can only be defended by the most racist and hateful of people. The other side countered with tactics that are taking what ever good will they might have had and all of the moral high ground and flushing it.

I know Israel is extremely sensitive to efforts to wipe them from the Earth because there are people alive who experienced the closest anyone came to succeeding. I want them to defend themselves. I also don’t want new generation of people carrying out the next wave of terror because Israel leveled their homes, killed their parents and put their siblings in jail.

 

That is why I bristle at the "no good guys" argument. People keep talking about a cease-fire. There was one in place Oct. 7. We saw how Hamas respects that. They keep telling us they will do it again if given the opportunity. Negotiation isn't an option. Hamas won't let it be an option. It is way too easy for you and others to tell Israel to switch to tactics that will get more Israelis killed.

 

Israel is not going to get the benefit of a WWII type coalition wiping out Hamas the way the Nazis were. Wiping out the Palestinians *is* genocide/ethnic cleansing, like it or not. There's no way to kill off Hamas the way they want to, not without taking out the Palestinians who are not Hamas fighters wholesale.

The Irish Troubles, Bosnia/Serbia, the Hutu/Tutsi genocide, you name it, the only way they get settled in any way resembling permanently is at the negotiating table. The only other permanency comes via "kill'em all", and I don't see that happening.

Curious, OOP, did you watch that Beau vid?

 

At some point, the only thing that cures hate is to not hate. To continue to stoop to the tactics of your enemy who is trying to destroy you doesn’t eliminate your enemy. It grows more. The enemy wants Israel to kill civilians. They want children to be martyrs. If that enemy won’t negotiate, the answer isn’t to kill everyone in sight. You ignore the leaders and negotiate with the people. Show the people you wish to preserve life. Feed them. House them. Tend to the wounded.
An eye for an eye leaves the world blind. A death for a death leaves no one to enjoy the peace.

 

Hamas loves death more than Israelis love life. That is the problem.

 

That's a nice thought, but I don't think it's a very realistic possibility for either side at this point.
The only reason Hamas would accept or even allow that is to twist it and further its aims of killing more Israelis. It has proven that. Even with all of the pain inflicted upon it in the past two months it has continued to state that that is its goal.
The Israelis, then, would be foolish in the extreme to go down that road. The fact they're currently being forced by the international community to resupply their enemy in a shooting war is ridiculous. No one would put that demand on Ukraine or Russia in their war, or the last Middle Eastern war against ISIS, so why is it being demanded for Israel vs. Hamas?

Which brings us back to the only other viable solution right now — Israel has to pound them into submission. Break the sons'a bitches in two, and cripple not only their ability to wage war but their desire to do so for the foreseeable future. Don't just beat them, but make sure they know they are beaten. There will eventually be a peace to be won, and at that time Israel will need to do all of the things you mentioned. But first it has to win the war and ensure it survives to see the other side.

 

My non-hippy philosophical point is mainly at some point negotiations have to happen. In traditional wars this occurs when the military is so thoroughly beaten, fighting isn’t practical.

In this case, when does that happen? Does killing thousands of civilians achieve this? Due in World War II and others, it was a price to pay. But in those wars, it was armies in the field that decided the fight. Here, killing civilians is what Hamas wants. And they want to show Palestinians they were right all along to hate Israel. So step one is to stop Hsmas’ ability to fight. Step two has to be negotiations. It isn’t what some want, but at some point, it must be done. You can’t suggest you are the victims of genocide if you yourself are committing genocide.

And at the end of all of this, Israel and Palestine has to coexist. Israel is all within its rights to suggest a government can’t exist if its aim is to wipe out Israel. But can we have a little compassion for people who just want to live their lives?

 

See, this is where some folks go off the rails, even implying that Israel is engaging in ethnic cleansing. Sorry. You lose me entirely there.

Did you watch the Maher video? Hamas violates every agreement it enters into. They will settle for nothing less than the murder of all Israelis. They aren't shy about this fact. They don't care how many of their own people get killed in the process. They aren't shy about that, either.

Edit: I watched the Beau video after posting this. He brings in one reason for negotiations that isn't about the good of Israelis or Palestinians, the shipping issue. It makes all those calls for peace from other nations look like they are a little less about humanitarian concerns and a little more about their own self-interest.