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Meanwhile on the International front....

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by DanOregon, Apr 28, 2023.

  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Also, Al Queda was largely hiding in Afghanistan, not Iraq. Hamas is in Gaza.
     
  2. dixiehack

    dixiehack Well-Known Member

    A country where the religious establishment calls the shots is a terrible idea - except when it is my preferred religion.

    That seems to be the vibe in all directions.
     
    2muchcoffeeman likes this.
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    That is every country (the "religious establishment" part). ... There is always a religious majority, sometimes an overwhelming majority.

    Good governments are set up to guarantee the rights of religious minorities. The problematic countries are the ones that are run as theocracies and dictatorships.

    Israel is a democracy. The country was set up to be a Jewish state, obviously, but minorities have rights there. Israeli Arabs are free to practice their own religion. Their Declaration of Independence in 1948 guaranteed that religious freedom for everyone, and the laws and courts of Israel have always backed up that guarantee.
     
  4. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Not all of it.
     
  5. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    free link

    The Unpunished: How Extremists Took Over Israel

    This story is told in three parts. The first documents the unequal system of justice that grew around Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. The second shows how extremists targeted not only Palestinians but also Israeli officials trying to make peace. The third explores how this movement gained control of the state itself. Taken together, they tell the story of how a radical ideology moved from the fringes to the heart of Israeli political power.



     
    Neutral Corner likes this.
  6. X-Hack

    X-Hack Well-Known Member

    Yeah -- about that...

    United Nations halves estimate of women and children killed in Gaza | National Post

    And a pretty good unrolled thread on the subject ...

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1789826262640280011.html?utm_campaign=topunroll

    And if you're going to use WHO as your authority on the reliability of casualty figures provided by Hamas mouthpieces (as the Reuters article you posted, from two months ago, does), they -- like the rest of the UN -- have a pretty rich history of hypocrisy, bias and otherwise complete bullshit when it comes to Israel. For example, hijacking a 2021 conference that was supposed to be about international COVID responses to an Israel-bashing festival:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/world...tion-alleging-israel-violating-health-rights/

    This is a pro-Israel organization that monitors NGOs for anti-Israel bias, so that's important context, but they're stating the facts too:

    https://unwatch.org/whos-2023-assembly-once-again-singles-out-israel-as-violator-of-health-rights/
     
  7. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    The Reuters piece I posted is from May 14th.

    It specifies the revisions you mention, which reflect postmortem identifications.

    I don't doubt that the Hamas/GHM numbers are incorrect.

    But I see no official counter-estimate from Israel, and the press isn't allowed to independently report from Gaza.
     
  8. X-Hack

    X-Hack Well-Known Member

    I misread the date. My bad.

    But read the unrolled thread and also take a look at WHO's history regarding Israel (which mirrors the rest of the UN) and you'll see that WHO's apparent approval of Hamas's casualty counts is what the kids would call "sus."

    Also -- Hamas counts 16 and 17 year old gunmen as "children" and doesn't distinguish between fighter and civilian in its overall counts. But let's say I give you the 35K. Then you accept Israel's estimate of about 15k combatants. That's still less than a 2-1 civilian/combatant ratio, which is largely unheard of in urban warfare -- hardly smacks of "genocide."
     
  9. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Maybe.

    This, from the Wall Street Journal, seems fair, pretty well reported and reasonable. gift link: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-ea...5h1vkgf4m91&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

    In March, when the Palestinian estimate reached 30,000 deaths, the Israeli military’s chief spokesman said the total figure could be roughly right. “I don’t push back. I don’t question the number 30,000,” Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari told reporters. He disputed the Gaza health ministry’s claim that the vast majority were women and children.

    Given the number of collapsed buildings, an accurate count is likely impossible.

     
  10. Batman

    Batman Well-Known Member

    Which brings us right back to where we started.
    Given the chance to have some form of self-governance, Gaza chose to elect Hamas. Hamas has as its core mission not of benevolent rule for a greater Palestine, and peaceful co-existence with Israel, but the destruction of Israel. That led to Oct. 7, which was an atrocity no nation can be expected to turn the other cheek toward — and it was also an atrocity that Hamas vowed to commit over and over again until Israel is destroyed.
    How else is Israel supposed to respond to that threat?
    I hate to say it, but the only real way to do it is with an overwhelming show of force that probably kills a lot of people. You win wars by pushing the other side to a point where their spirit is broken and they are unwilling to fight, similar to Germany or Japan in World War II, or the South in the Civil War. The more hardcore the opposition in their beliefs, the harder that is to do. Hamas obviously has not reached that point yet, in part because they have somehow convinced enough people in Gaza and around the world that they — the people who murdered hundreds of Israelis in their homes, burned people alive and took hostages they are using as bargaining chips — are the victims.
     
    WriteThinking likes this.
  11. Starman

    Starman Well-Known Member

    Last edited: May 16, 2024
  12. 2muchcoffeeman

    2muchcoffeeman Well-Known Member

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