Ferguson / Staten Island Decisions -- No Indictments

[The Big Ragu]

Sorry if the stereotype bothered you, YF. Apparently it detracted from the point you aren't addressing. We live in a free society. When someone in law enforcement gets handed a badge and a gun to do his or her job, it doesn't give them authority at their discretion (whether they have a GED or 20 advanced degrees from Cambridge, if you know that cop) to decide who is bad and play judge and jury and dispense instant justice as they see fit.

And if you don't understand why I have taken pains to point that out, go back through this thread and look at all of the posts about how Eric Garner was a "criminal," therefore what happened to him is somehow more justifiable than if it had happened to someone who wasn't a criminal.

I found that sentiment horrifying on the face of it.

But it's also just wrong. At the moment of his death, Eric Garner was about to be ACCUSED of something by the cops (the kind of crime that would have gotten me a summons at worst, not 5 cops taking me down, but that is an entirely other story).

If you are ever falsely accused of something, you'll likely come to an instant understanding about the difference between the cops treating you like "the accused," who has rights. ... and the cops treating you like a "criminal." We should all be vigilant about making sure everyone gets treated like the first -- whether it's Eric Garner or your dear sweet grandmother. When you treat the person think is the worst that way, it is what ensures that YOU will be treated that way, too.

I'm just not sure why you couldn't make your broader point without the denigrating -- and patently false, in regards to the NYPD -- stereotype.

I haven't denigrated anyone. And the thing you are harping on isn't "patently false."

You are harping on something meaningless. The point was that Joe Cop wasn't born endowed with the wisdom of Solomon and the benevolence of Samuel. Which is why I used the extreme of the knucklehead with his GED and a badge -- and I wasn't being ridiculous because I have met that guy multiple times. 60 unspecified college credits, since you are so hung up on it, isn't necessarily a degree of any sort. It's well short of a bachelors and it is an associates at best. Which is why, yeah, there are cops on the force whose highest degree is their GED. I'd go out and find you one, if it wasn't such a stupid thing for you to be so hung up on -- other than to ignore my post and make it about something dumb.

 

[Boom_70]

I could be wrong but I thought the NYPD were not to use the chokehold. That's one thing that could have been done differently.

I think most are in agreement that the choke hold was against NYPD policy but not
"illegal" as many of the TV talkers are saying for effect.

Choke hold is outlawed by The NYS Athletic Commission though and cannot be used
in WWE NYS events.

 

[YankeeFan]

Eric Garner's neighborhood sounds great.

I can't imagine why the residents would like to see an increased police presence and better enforcement of petty crime:

A rattled Staten Island landlord repeatedly contacted the cops about the nightmare on Bay St.: dope dealers, cigarette peddlers, public urination, threats of rape and assault.

Then Eric Garner, a suspected seller of untaxed cigarettes, died in the midst of his July 17 arrest. A month later, things on the block are even more out of control.

"It has only gotten worse, much worse, since Eric died," the landlord told the Daily News ahead of Sunday's one-month anniversary of Garner's death.

"Now the police, they don't want to have another incident there so they have a hands-off approach," said the landlord, who asked not to be identified. "Anyway you slice it, it's a mess."

Things certainly didn't appear any better Friday on the Tompkinsville block where Garner, 43, died after a cop wrapped his neck in a lethal chokehold.

On a bright afternoon in broad daylight, dozens of men and women aimlessly roamed the Bay St. sidewalk. Loiterers stood outside buildings, intimidating the residents and passersby.

One man, sitting in a chair, sold loose cigarettes for 75 cents apiece just feet from the spot where Garner collapsed to the sidewalk, fighting for his last breath.

A visibly drunken woman, clutching a large can tucked inside a paper bag, stumbled through Tompkinsville Park as its denizens watched with disinterest from surrounding benches.

Undercover police in unmarked cars occasionally rolled by. One parked for a while and then drove off. No one was arrested.

"They still sell loose cigarettes, they're selling drugs, they're hanging out, fighting," said Randy Vitucci, 60, a driver for Dejoy's Red Top cabs.

"It quieted down for a little bit right after the memorial, but then it went right back to business as usual," the cabbie continued. "These people, most of them, don't live in the neighborhood. They hang out in the park all day long."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/neighborhood-eric-garner-died-worse-landlord-article-1.1905990

 

[YankeeFan]

Sorry if the stereotype bothered you, YF. Apparently it detracted from the point you aren't addressing. We live in a free society. When someone in law enforcement gets handed a badge and a gun to do his or her job, it doesn't give them authority at their discretion (whether they have a GED or 20 advanced degrees from Cambridge, if you know that cop) to decide who is bad and play judge and jury and dispense instant justice as they see fit.

And if you don't understand why I have taken pains to point that out, go back through this thread and look at all of the posts about how Eric Garner was a "criminal," therefore what happened to him is somehow more justifiable than if it had happened to someone who wasn't a criminal.

I found that sentiment horrifying on the face of it.

But it's also just wrong. At the moment of his death, Eric Garner was about to be ACCUSED of something by the cops (the kind of crime that would have gotten me a summons at worst, not 5 cops taking me down, but that is an entirely other story).

If you are ever falsely accused of something, you'll likely come to an instant understanding about the difference between the cops treating you like "the accused," who has rights. ... and the cops treating you like a "criminal." We should all be vigilant about making sure everyone gets treated like the first -- whether it's Eric Garner or your dear sweet grandmother. When you treat the person think is the worst that way, it is what ensures that YOU will be treated that way, too.

I'm just not sure why you couldn't make your broader point without the denigrating -- and patently false, in regards to the NYPD -- stereotype.

I haven't denigrated anyone. And the thing you are harping on isn't "patently false."

You are harping on something meaningless. The point was that Joe Cop wasn't born endowed with the wisdom of Solomon and the benevolence of Samuel. Which is why I used the extreme of the knucklehead with his GED and a badge -- and I wasn't being ridiculous because I have met that guy multiple times. 60 unspecified college degrees, since you are so hung up on it, isn't necessarily a degree of any sort. It's well short of a bachelors and it is an associates at best. Which is why, yeah, there are cops on the force whose highest degree is their GED. I'd go out and find you one, if it wasn't such a stupid thing for you to be so hung up on -- other than to ignore my post and make it about something dumb.

It's not a stupid thing to be hung up on.

You falsely stereotyped cops. You wouldn't stand for that kind of stereotyping of other groups. Apologize and move on.

Defending you bias makes you look foolish.

 

[doctorquant]

When someone in law enforcement gets handed a badge and a gun to do his or her job, it doesn't give them authority at their discretion ... to decide who is bad and play judge and jury and dispense instant justice as they see fit.

Also ... this implication (that you're making) that some policemen just say, "fork it, he's a criminal, I'll go ahead and take him out." ... It might be true on occasion, but I don't recall any such narrative being advanced in the Ferguson/Staten Island cases.

 

[cranberry]

I'm just not sure why you couldn't make your broader point without the denigrating -- and patently false, in regards to the NYPD -- stereotype.

Well, the discussion pertains to how much faith we should have in police officers to carry out their jobs in ways that protect and respect our civil liberties. Most of the Staten Island cops (and fire fighters) I know are former high school and collegiate athletes who while reasonably intelligent were not particularly interested in academics, either. I'm sure there are exceptions.

 

[The Big Ragu]

Sorry if the stereotype bothered you, YF. Apparently it detracted from the point you aren't addressing. We live in a free society. When someone in law enforcement gets handed a badge and a gun to do his or her job, it doesn't give them authority at their discretion (whether they have a GED or 20 advanced degrees from Cambridge, if you know that cop) to decide who is bad and play judge and jury and dispense instant justice as they see fit.

And if you don't understand why I have taken pains to point that out, go back through this thread and look at all of the posts about how Eric Garner was a "criminal," therefore what happened to him is somehow more justifiable than if it had happened to someone who wasn't a criminal.

I found that sentiment horrifying on the face of it.

But it's also just wrong. At the moment of his death, Eric Garner was about to be ACCUSED of something by the cops (the kind of crime that would have gotten me a summons at worst, not 5 cops taking me down, but that is an entirely other story).

If you are ever falsely accused of something, you'll likely come to an instant understanding about the difference between the cops treating you like "the accused," who has rights. ... and the cops treating you like a "criminal." We should all be vigilant about making sure everyone gets treated like the first -- whether it's Eric Garner or your dear sweet grandmother. When you treat the person think is the worst that way, it is what ensures that YOU will be treated that way, too.

You can certainly question the take down/arrest as wrong but to say "falsely accused"
seems completely uninformed. It's not in question that Garner has been illegally selling cigarettes and also had been arrested previously for same offense. Cut to his wife:

Snipes insisted that during his numerous run-ins with cops, Garner had never resisted arrest, which cops say was the reason for the fatal July 17 takedown.

"I'm not going to say he was a career criminal, but I'm going to say he had a past of being arrested," Snipes said. "And he never, not once, ever resisted arrest."

Snipes said cops even knew her husband "by name" and routinely "harassed" the couple when they went out shopping.

"They said things to us: 'Hi, Cigarette Man. Hey, Cigarette Man Wife.' You know? Stuff like that," she said.

You are missing the point. Eric Garner may have been selling cigarettes. He may not have been. I wasn't there. I do know that his past criminal arrests and/or convictions have absolutely no bearing on that day or how the cops should have been treating him.

The point of my post wasn't to proclaim his innocence. It's to give him the presumption of innocence ANY of us would want if we were falsely accused of something. Unless you give him that presumption, and guarantee his rights. ... you can't expect to have it at the moment you might need it.

We have a system of justice that provides you rights when you are ACCUSED of something. All of us, whether it is career criminal Eric or never-been-arrested Boom. At the moment of his arrest, Eric Garber was simply accused of something. He wasn't a criminal. He was a guy about to be charged with something.

 

[Boom_70]

I'm just not sure why you couldn't make your broader point without the denigrating -- and patently false, in regards to the NYPD -- stereotype.

Well, the discussion pertains to how much faith we should have in police officers to carry out their jobs in ways that protect and respect our civil liberties. Most of the Staten Island cops (and fire fighters) I know are former high school and collegiate athletes who while reasonably intelligent were not particularly interested in academics, either. I'm sure there are exceptions.

Hey 1600 and The DOJ don't care about civil liberties, why should the cops?

 

[poindexter]

Eric Garner's neighborhood sounds great.

I can't imagine why the residents would like to see an increased police presence and better enforcement of petty crime:

A rattled Staten Island landlord repeatedly contacted the cops about the nightmare on Bay St.: dope dealers, cigarette peddlers, public urination, threats of rape and assault.

Then Eric Garner, a suspected seller of untaxed cigarettes, died in the midst of his July 17 arrest. A month later, things on the block are even more out of control.

"It has only gotten worse, much worse, since Eric died," the landlord told the Daily News ahead of Sunday's one-month anniversary of Garner's death.

"Now the police, they don't want to have another incident there so they have a hands-off approach," said the landlord, who asked not to be identified. "Anyway you slice it, it's a mess."

Things certainly didn't appear any better Friday on the Tompkinsville block where Garner, 43, died after a cop wrapped his neck in a lethal chokehold.

On a bright afternoon in broad daylight, dozens of men and women aimlessly roamed the Bay St. sidewalk. Loiterers stood outside buildings, intimidating the residents and passersby.

One man, sitting in a chair, sold loose cigarettes for 75 cents apiece just feet from the spot where Garner collapsed to the sidewalk, fighting for his last breath.

A visibly drunken woman, clutching a large can tucked inside a paper bag, stumbled through Tompkinsville Park as its denizens watched with disinterest from surrounding benches.

Undercover police in unmarked cars occasionally rolled by. One parked for a while and then drove off. No one was arrested.

"They still sell loose cigarettes, they're selling drugs, they're hanging out, fighting," said Randy Vitucci, 60, a driver for Dejoy's Red Top cabs.

"It quieted down for a little bit right after the memorial, but then it went right back to business as usual," the cabbie continued. "These people, most of them, don't live in the neighborhood. They hang out in the park all day long."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/neighborhood-eric-garner-died-worse-landlord-article-1.1905990

Garner was selling loosies for 50 cents. Another tragic consequence in all this is that the cost of loosies has gone up 50% in the neighborhood since his death.

 

[JC]

The horror of cigarettes being sold on the corner, tax cheating bastards.

 

[Boom_70]

Sorry if the stereotype bothered you, YF. Apparently it detracted from the point you aren't addressing. We live in a free society. When someone in law enforcement gets handed a badge and a gun to do his or her job, it doesn't give them authority at their discretion (whether they have a GED or 20 advanced degrees from Cambridge, if you know that cop) to decide who is bad and play judge and jury and dispense instant justice as they see fit.

And if you don't understand why I have taken pains to point that out, go back through this thread and look at all of the posts about how Eric Garner was a "criminal," therefore what happened to him is somehow more justifiable than if it had happened to someone who wasn't a criminal.

I found that sentiment horrifying on the face of it.

But it's also just wrong. At the moment of his death, Eric Garner was about to be ACCUSED of something by the cops (the kind of crime that would have gotten me a summons at worst, not 5 cops taking me down, but that is an entirely other story).

If you are ever falsely accused of something, you'll likely come to an instant understanding about the difference between the cops treating you like "the accused," who has rights. ... and the cops treating you like a "criminal." We should all be vigilant about making sure everyone gets treated like the first -- whether it's Eric Garner or your dear sweet grandmother. When you treat the person think is the worst that way, it is what ensures that YOU will be treated that way, too.

You can certainly question the take down/arrest as wrong but to say "falsely accused"
seems completely uninformed. It's not in question that Garner has been illegally selling cigarettes and also had been arrested previously for same offense. Cut to his wife:

Snipes insisted that during his numerous run-ins with cops, Garner had never resisted arrest, which cops say was the reason for the fatal July 17 takedown.

"I'm not going to say he was a career criminal, but I'm going to say he had a past of being arrested," Snipes said. "And he never, not once, ever resisted arrest."

Snipes said cops even knew her husband "by name" and routinely "harassed" the couple when they went out shopping.

"They said things to us: 'Hi, Cigarette Man. Hey, Cigarette Man Wife.' You know? Stuff like that," she said.

You are missing the point. Eric Garner may have been selling cigarettes. He may not have been. I wasn't there. I do know that his past criminal arrests and/or convictions have absolutely no bearing on that day or how the cops should have been treating him.

The point of my post wasn't to proclaim his innocence. It's to give him the presumption of innocence ANY of us would want if we were falsely accused of something. Unless you give him that presumption, and guarantee his rights. ... you can't expect to have it at the moment you might need it.

We have a system of justice that provides you rights when you are ACCUSED of something. All of us, whether it is career criminal Eric or never-been-arrested Boom. At the moment of his arrest, Eric Garber was simply accused of something. He wasn't a criminal. He was a guy about to be charged with something.

He sold cigarettes to an undercover cop. How was he falsely accused?

If you argued that a summons was more appropriate I would agree but
he was not falsely accused.

 

[The Big Ragu]

When someone in law enforcement gets handed a badge and a gun to do his or her job, it doesn't give them authority at their discretion ... to decide who is bad and play judge and jury and dispense instant justice as they see fit.

Also ... this implication (that you're making) that some policemen just say, "fork it, he's a criminal, I'll go ahead and take him out." ... It might be true on occasion, but I don't recall any such narrative being advanced in the Ferguson/Staten Island cases.

Oh, I do think that happens. If it happens once, it is too often. I think it happens way more often than that.

But the reason I posted, wasn't because *I* am making implications. People on THIS THREAD have said multiple times. ... "Eric Garner was a criminal. If he hadn't been a criminal, he wouldn't have died in a chokehold." My post that started this was in answer to someone who said something like that. "If you don't want the cops to bother you, don't be a criminal." The fact that anyone thinks that way frightens me.