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President Trump: The NEW one and only politics thread

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Moderator1, Nov 12, 2016.

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  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Whatever you read about this tax plan. ... Know three things (among many others I could point out):

    1) This is not "tax reform." It's "tax cut."
    2) I am as for tax cuts as anyone. I'd like to see 0 income tax. But this is just candy. We are locked into trillions of dollars of spending every year that we already don't fund, with the entitlements we have saddled ourselves with. We already have a huge debt problem that we won't be able to get out of. It is irresponsible (but not surprising) to REDUCE revenues further without first addressing the spending. This is a bad thing.
    3) They are selling it with the usual sophistry -- because people are so dumb. They want to sell it as a middle class tax break. What this is really about is cutting corporate rates -- which makes sense, actually, because we are uncompetitive. That said, a big part of this will the repatriation part of it -- U.S. companies have close to $3 trillion of cash sitting overseas that they can't bring back here without getting taxed up the wazoo. The theory is, if you give them incentive to bring that money back here they will invest it and that will create jobs. ... which is what WOULD happen if our economy wasn't being manipulated to create skewed incentives elsewhere. For the last decade, those companies have been able to borrow for next to nothing. And they have -- nearly all of those companies have loaded up their balance sheets with debt that more than offsets the money they have sitting oversees. It is ridiculously cheap to borrow. For the last decade, those companies could have been using that money to build new factories, train workers, invest new business segments. ... and instead they have returned nearly all of that money to their shareholders via stock buybacks and dividend increases. Which was rational, because our economy has been depressed, so they don't want to invest in something that won't return the capital. The same thing that has enabled those companies to borrow so cheaply has investors / savers clamoring for the dividends. ... those savers are being robbed of the yield those companies would have to pay to borrow in an unmanipulated debt market. So the incentive is to buy back stock and create financially-manipulated increases in stock prices that way (people are being forced to try to substitute capital gains for safe yield) and pay back cash in the form of dividends. Anyhow, the point is that with that money repatriated, those same companies aren't going to build factories and create jobs. The smart ones will pay back some of the debt they have piled onto their balance sheets. Unfortunately, most others will just do more of the same with the money -- trying to engineer higher stock prices via buybacks and dividend increases. Bank on it. They have no incentive not to do it. You don't expand your business to meet demand that doesn't exist.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
    justgladtobehere likes this.
  2. Baron Scicluna

    Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

    "Bumblefuck High really didn't belong on the same field as Dickie Thon. Like Chelsea Clinton at NBC, they only were on that field because of who their parents are. Those same parents also have called the Bumfuck Times for weeks complaining that we only cover them when they lose."
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    BTW, the Federal death tax trigger this year is something like $5.5 million. I am listening to Trump right now going on about farmers and Americans screwed by it (and I actually agree; it is double taxation and unfair). But 99 percent of the people he is addressing will never sniff that kind of estate. Yet, they are cheering like they hit the lottery. He could be saying anything right now and they'd cheer enthusiastically.
     
  4. Steak Snabler

    Steak Snabler Well-Known Member

  5. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    No pols face real crowds anymore. It's all prescreened fan club members. Trump didn't invent that one. As for the estate tax, only wealthy people who're too cheap to hire competent attorneys, accountants and wealth managers ever pay a nickel.
     
  6. cjericho

    cjericho Well-Known Member

    So if all the smart people can avoid paying it, what was the point of passing it?
     
  7. Inky_Wretch

    Inky_Wretch Well-Known Member

    Far too many people think the estate tax will hit them when mom passes and leaves her $165,000 3BR, 2BA to them.
     
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    You shouldn't have to jump through hoops sheltering your wealth in ways and places YOU don't want it committed to (and paying others, btw, which takes capital that could be being deployed for much better uses) to avoid your government snatching it from you.
     
    YankeeFan likes this.
  9. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    It came into being in the Progressive Era. It took the wealthy time to figure out the ways around it, most of which involve turning the rich person into an assemblage of trusts of one kind or another.
     
  10. cjericho

    cjericho Well-Known Member

    So then shouldn't there be a new tax so the rich person can't get around it?
     
  11. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    The idea that the US should not create an aristocracy of inherited wealth is also a fundamental one. Teddy Roosevelt, an aristocrat of inherited wealth, believed that quite strongly. It's as American as our quest for the almighty buck.
     
  12. DanOregon

    DanOregon Well-Known Member

    The purpose of the estate tax is to prevent our country from falling into an oligarchy where wealth is concentrated among a few families. Obviously it hasn't prevented that too well.
    But the larger point is that the tax is on the transaction, not the money. You have money taken out of your paycheck for income tax, it doesn't preclude you from paying a sales tax when you use some of that money to buy something.

    My basic way of evaluating a tax cut is how much it costs. There is no point in giving a $1 tax cut to the average American, if it adds $3 to their share of debt. If our wealthiest individuals haven't produced an economic boom with the top rate declining 50 percent since 1980, I don't see why giving them any more of a cut would.
     
    Donny in his element likes this.
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