Ukraine Always Get What You Want

Trump will abrogate all U.S. treaties on Jan. 21 and throw U.S. forces in on the side of Russia. One of his greatest lifetime dreams has been to be the commander of a victorious army.

 

How much of Ukraine are you willing to give to Russia to avoid World War III?

 

I don't know. That's for the Ukrainians and Russians to hash out, hopefully once everyone is able to find some sanity and slow down the brinksmanship.
How far are you willing to push our involvement before we do get World War III? Because right now it seems like we're one ill-timed flock of geese on a radar screen from being there.

 

You've read up on Putin's conditions for ending the war, right?

Why don't you ask that question of Russia?

Would you ever choose to make a stand? If Russia attacks the Baltic States, should we capitulate to avoid World War III? Poland? Finland?

How much territory can Russia grab by brute force before you're willing to say, "OK that's too much"?

 

Especially with the North Koreans now involved, and South Korea giving aid to Ukraine.
A South Korean-made missile hits a Russian supply depot manned by North Korean troops. Now North Korea uses that as justification to finally attack South Korea, which also brings China into the war. China, now at war, invades Taiwan and probably the rest of Southeast Asia while it's at it because if they're in for a dime they're in for a yuan. Japan and Australia go into action to try to stabilize Asia and defend their own interests. Iran and Israel stop holding back, since if everybody else is doing it then why not? The U.S. and Europe, already fighting a proxy war, are sucked into the actual shooting war through a web of alliances that would rival 1914.
Now we're fighting a three-front war when our resources are already stretched thin between Ukraine, the Pacific and the Middle East.
We're getting very close to that scenario and all anyone seems to want to do is step harder on the gas.

 

Oh man .... if only there were some country involved that could solve all this by calling off their invasion. If only ...

 

I think we can agree that Ukraine is not going to roll tanks through Red Square in a victory parade, right?
I think we can also agree that we certainly don't want Russia marching troops through Kyiv.
I think we can further agree that nobody wants to see this escalate to a full-blown world war.
You seem pretty knowledgeable about war and geopolitics. So what is your scenario on how this ends? Realistically, without it blowing up into a genuine world war, or a nuke getting dropped on somebody, somewhere?
All I'm doing is seeing how the chess pieces are setting up, and it seems like everyone is running out of moves. And of those three unpalatable scenarios I laid out, the third one is probably the worst and is increasingly looking the most likely.

 

How I want it to end? The cost becomes to high to bare and Russia tucks tail and runs, akin to their exit from Afghanistan.

How it will end? Trump is going to cut off aid to Ukraine and ignore the problem. Russia will grind Ukraine down - yes, including Russian troops marching through Kyiv - and we'll have Cold War II, with occupied Kyiv standing in place of Berlin. .... and then we do this all again in a few years over a Baltic state, with the added benefit of small countries realizing, "The West will not stand up to Russia; therefore our only choice is to start our own nuclear program."

That's what this war is all about, btw. Nuclear non-proliferation.

 

Jesus, @Batman, have you built your fallout shelter yet?

 

Well, I suppose one way to promote nuclear non-proliferation is to fight a war that leads to a lot of those small countries becoming irradiated wastelands with no one left to proliferate.

BTW, I get what you're saying. There aren't a lot of good options here. I just don't like the option we seem hellbent on choosing, or that no one involved in making those decisions seems to even be considering any other. I'd like to think we can save the world without blowing it up first.

 

In 1992 the Soviet Union collapsed and overnight Ukraine became the world's third-largest nuclear power. In the name of non-proliferation, we (the United States and the Russians) told Ukraine to give the nukes back to Russia, and in exchange we (the United States and Russia) would ensure their sovereignty.

So now Russia has backstabbed that agreement, and the lesson for small countries seems to be, "nuclear non-proliferation makes you a subject state to the whims of Russia, so it is in your interest to have nuclear weapons."

What's more: When was the last time any first-world country expanded its territory through strength of arms? It hasn't happened in the nuclear era, and for good reason.

In short: The United States isn't the one taking us to the brink of global war. It's the Russians. Direct your anger towards them. Hope that rational actors on both sides prevail.

Surrender gets us nothing. But I look forward to Donald Trump turning his back on Ukraine, the Russians overrunning the country, and you and the rest of the Trump voters celebrating this "peace."

 

This is my main point in this. I am hoping for this, as we all should be. But right now, we don't seem to have any rational actors on their side or ours.