Get the jumper cables, electrodes, bamboo shoots and water board ready

To pall, tony, et al:

So do we throw our dignity out the window here? Do we throw our honor out? What about the self-respect involved in not succumbing to the methods of terrorists? Where does that come into play?

If any and all means are deemed necessary, does that mean at some point down the line, we should be able to scare the terrorists by beheading one of them and posting the video on the Internet? Where does the line get drawn?

At what point do WE put aside our values during a war?

 

During WWII the Allies routinely shot, as spies, soldiers captured not in uniform and this was allowed under the Geneva Convention. In my eyes all of al Qaida's "soldiers" are spies.

 

The US can win this fight without descending to the level of the scum we're fighting.

We can.

Too bad Shrubby finds it . . . so . . . "inconvenient".

The last two years of this nonsense are going to be a trip. Think Nixon, in a different key.

 

If what the wingnut chorus here says is true -- To hell with John McCain. What does he know? We watch 24 every week! -- then why does Fredo constantly argue that what we do isn't torture? And, once you've answered that, explain to me why he's trrying to retroactively immunize people against prosecution for those tactics? Here are some hints:

1) He doesn't know what he's talking about. If someone water-boarded his daughters, would he consider that torture? The administration that once considered the Geneva Conventions "quaint," now is interested in more clearly defining them? Bullshit squared. Same thing on the NSDA spying. He broke the law 30 times and he knows it. He wants immunity ex post facto, because he's a feckless bully who believes he should never account for his actions.
2) It doesn't work. The people who know most about it say it doesn't work.
3) The idea that the threat of Islamonazifascists -- or whatever the bedwetting term of art is this week -- is sufficient to change the nature of who we are in the world so drastically is a surrender to fear so obvious that everyone in this country should be ashamed.

 

What, exactly are the benefits of torture?
Does it make 9-11 victims' families feel better knowing these people are treated like this? Does it make most decent Americans feel better? Does it deter potential terrorists because they'll know they'll be treated this way if they're ever captured?
Is the information obtained by torture necessarily reliable or do people tend to say whatever their captors want to hear just to get them to stop?

 

Perhaps it wouldn't apply to this war against terrorism.
But say something flares up six months from now against a country with a real army -- lets for arguments sake say Argentina. Bush is thinking short term with terrorists, but long term its a mistake.
What is to keep the Argentines from saying, "US doesnt use the Geneva Convention, why should we?"

 

Fredo's relationship with Jesus, I guess.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong. Just because we're fighting terrorists, we don't have to adopt their tactics and methods. We are better than they are; sticking to the Geneva Convention proves it.

And slappy makes a very strong point. I've said this before and it still applies: the Bush 2 administration does not take the long view on anything. Eventually, that's going to bite this nation in the ass.

The Bush 2 administration clearly thrives on one emotion: fear. I for one have had enough of that.

 

It torture is OK, then Al Queda won. Everything else is just the epilogue.

We lose when we become the terrorists, when any method is acceptable. I think we, collectively, are going to be as ashamed of this era as we are of McCarthyism and the Japanese Internment.

And wingnuts, please, spare me. What you spout now is exactly the kind of stuff that was spouted then. So not only are you wrong, you lack originality. And even the East German judge won't buy that.

We have to accept that yesterday, our president, basically made the argument that it's just hunky dorey to be a war criminal. That so many of us seem to be just fine with that disgusts me.

Why do you hate America so much?

 

No, we should not torture terror suspects. But to say that if we use other interrogation methods, our enemies will begin to torture our soldiers is a little far-fetched.

 

I agree, but some measures must be taken. What those measures should be, I don't know.

Who does?

 

Torture is not that measure, though. If you understand the current enemy, you realize that it's not going to be effective. Somebody with a higher regard for afterlife than life is not going to be too phased by anything you could do to them in this life.

We need to understand this enemy better. We're too concerned with trying to hold them to OUR standards and OUR values. We want to believe that what WE think is good or bad is going to apply to them the same. But it might not ...

So we can't hold them to the same values of pain and so-called "torture" if they don't share those same values -- I think that's a better point to make. And I think that's the starting point in how we fight this war.

Unfortunately, this administration does not seem interested in understanding this enemy. You can't win hearts and minds if you don't make the effort to find out what's in their hearts and minds.