All Purpose NBA Thread I

[RokSki]

No Amare, no KT, Bell gets hurt.

Nash took them down, all by himself, much to your, Simmons' and Bucher's displeasure. That's why he's the reigning MVP.

Kobe's a buster - don't believe the hype.

 

[RokSki]

Here's how a 4th quarter looks for a 2-time MVP:

3-3 FGA, 4-4 FT, 11 Pts, 3 Asts, 2 Rebs, 0 TO's, 1 win on road.



Here's how it looks for an MVP pretender, 'it's-all-about-me' gunner:

6-11 FGA, 2-2 FT, 15 Pts, 3 Asts, 1 Reb, 2 TO's, 0 win at home


Let's take a closer look at those numbers:

6-11 FGA (25 total for LAL in qtr, so Kobe took 42+% of LAL 4th qtr FGA - oh, and the teammates who 'couldn't make a shot,' they shot 50% for the 4th - there goes that theory), 2-2FT, 15 Pts (let the record reflect Kobe took and made a stat-padding 3 when the game was over, with 4 seconds left, so he had 12 points when it mattered), 3 Asts, 1 Reb, 2 TO's, 0 win at home

Now, normally for Kobe, a 3 assist/2 Turnover quarter is a godsend. Any quarter when Kobe has a >1 Ast/TO ratio is a good Kobe quarter. And it's not bad.

Until you look at Nash's 4/0 quarter. But that's routine for Nash, we just expect that from him. Nash had 1 less point when the game was up for grabs in the 4th than Kobe did. On 8 - EIGHT - less FGA.

That's why Nash is a 2-time MVP, and Kobe isn't, and won't be.

- - -

It's not just about scoring. It's about playing the team game, keeping your teammates involved, and being efficient. Layups count as much as dunks do, this isn't the MTV league where there's 5-point shots and such.

And at the end of the day, it's about winning. Nash won, Kobe lost. Again. Just like last year, when "MJ wannabe" Kobe couldn't close the show on the Suns up 3-1. MJ never - EVER - would have gone out like that, and he sure as heck wouldn't have been a baby and quit in the last game.

Kobe is talented. He's a great 2nd option (as long as Tayshaun Prince isn't guarding him).

He's not an MVP; he's not a #1 guy; he's not a leader; he's not a genuine person.

He is a fraud; he is "innocent;" he is a hero for 'And-1' Nation; he is the guy who ran Shaq out of town.

Today - to paraphrase Simmons' overenthusiastic phrasing last year before Kobe and his Lakers melted down against the Suns - is a perfect 'snapshot' of why Kobe is not an MVP, and why teams he has led are at .500 for 3 years. His team was in the game for 3 quarters because he wasn't dominating the ball. 4th quarter comes, Kobe dominates ball, Lakers get run off their home court.

Second verse, same as the first.

For 11 years running.

Peace.

 

[RokSki]

Had to amend that last post, got one stat wrong

 

[RokSki]

I also have to say that whoever was saying CLE is going to be out in the 1st round, you are looking right. I didn't agree, but I hadn't realized they had slipped to #5 behind CHI. Whoever said that, you are looking quite correct as we sit here today. Bad call by me.

If MIA is #4 there's no way CLE is beating them in the 1st round. CLE could beat TOR, but that's no sure bet.

We'll see. But they better hope MIA isn't sitting at #4, or they're gone in round 1.

 

[RokSki]

Nice to see Wade back on the court for the Heat, even if he is struggling (5 TO's). There's no way they have a shot to repeat without him.

MIA and CHA going to OT.

 

[Chuck~Taylor]

Here's how a 4th quarter looks for a 2-time MVP:

3-3 FGA, 4-4 FT, 11 Pts, 3 Asts, 2 Rebs, 0 TO's, 1 win on road.



Here's how it looks for an MVP pretender, 'it's-all-about-me' gunner:

6-11 FGA, 2-2 FT, 15 Pts, 3 Asts, 1 Reb, 2 TO's, 0 win at home


Let's take a closer look at those numbers:

6-11 FGA (25 total for LAL in qtr, so Kobe took 42+% of LAL 4th qtr FGA - oh, and the teammates who 'couldn't make a shot,' they shot 50% for the 4th - there goes that theory), 2-2FT, 15 Pts (let the record reflect Kobe took and made a stat-padding 3 when the game was over, with 4 seconds left, so he had 12 points when it mattered), 3 Asts, 1 Reb, 2 TO's, 0 win at home

Now, normally for Kobe, a 3 assist/2 Turnover quarter is a godsend. Any quarter when Kobe has a >1 Ast/TO ratio is a good Kobe quarter. And it's not bad.

Until you look at Nash's 4/0 quarter. But that's routine for Nash, we just expect that from him. Nash had 1 less point when the game was up for grabs in the 4th than Kobe did. On 8 - EIGHT - less FGA.

That's why Nash is a 2-time MVP, and Kobe isn't, and won't be.

- - -

It's not just about scoring. It's about playing the team game, keeping your teammates involved, and being efficient. Layups count as much as dunks do, this isn't the MTV league where there's 5-point shots and such.

And at the end of the day, it's about winning. Nash won, Kobe lost. Again. Just like last year, when "MJ wannabe" Kobe couldn't close the show on the Suns up 3-1. MJ never - EVER - would have gone out like that, and he sure as heck wouldn't have been a baby and quit in the last game.

Kobe is talented. He's a great 2nd option (as long as Tayshaun Prince isn't guarding him).

He's not an MVP; he's not a #1 guy; he's not a leader; he's not a genuine person.

He is a fraud; he is "innocent;" he is a hero for 'And-1' Nation; he is the guy who ran Shaq out of town.

Today - to paraphrase Simmons' overenthusiastic phrasing last year before Kobe and his Lakers melted down against the Suns - is a perfect 'snapshot' of why Kobe is not an MVP, and why teams he has led are at .500 for 3 years. His team was in the game for 3 quarters because he wasn't dominating the ball. 4th quarter comes, Kobe dominates ball, Lakers get run off their home court.

Second verse, same as the first.

For 11 years running.

Peace.

Again, if you wanna talk turnovers, Steve Nash and Dwyane Wade lead the league in turnovers per game. Second of all, if you watched the game, Kobe's teammates missed their open jumpshots in crunch time. Just imagine if Kobe was playing with the Suns. When Kobe drives, everyone comes at him. When Nash drives, you have to worry about Amare, Marion, Bell, etc. So when you have 3 people up on your grill all day, I'd say you'd have a better chance of turning the ball over. Wouldn't you?

Kobe isn't a great number 1 guy? Kobe is And 1?! He took that team consisting of crap and almost beat the Suns last year. That's not a number 1 guy? Let me tell you something, number 2 guys don't score 35 points per game. They just don't. Number 2 guys dont' score 81 points in one game. Kobe is far from a fraud. You say it's not all about scoring. Not only does he average 31 per game, but he also averages 5 rebounds and 5 assists. What else do you want from the guy?
Let me acks you something Rok? When did Steve Nash's career take off? I'll tell you when it took off. It took off when:
1. They changed the rules so it would make it easier for guys like Steve Nash to succeed.
2. He got talent around him.

Before Nash was on the Mavericks, he was nothing. When he wasn't playing with talent, he was an unknown. Kobe's been playing with crap for 3 years and it I think he's been doing pretty good. Wouldn't you think so?
Or how about when Nash left the Mavericks. You would think that if an MVP caliber player would've left a team, that team would die. Result: Mavs beat Steve Nash's Suns and go to the finals.

Stop the hatin' Rok. Your Kobe fraud point is sooooo wrong. That's why when Kobe had his 50+ run, you were silent. You got nothin' to say about the guy. He's a champion, he's the best player right now, and when it's all said and done, he'll be top 5 all time.

Nice to see Wade back on the court for the Heat, even if he is struggling (5 TO's). There's no way they have a shot to repeat without him.

MIA and CHA going to OT.

No no no no. Did you forget what happened when Shaq was gone? heck, they're 15-7 without DWade. Shaq's the MVP of that team my friend.

Uh oh Rok. DWade's return ended in a loss to the Bobcats! Where's the DWADE THREAD ROK! Call the Air Force! Oh my god! DWade is the worst player in the world! He's a fraud! He's And 1! Pat Riley, if you're listening, cut DWade immediatley! He's a cancer!

 

[RokSki]

Stop the hatin' Rok. Your Kobe fraud point is sooooo wrong. That's why when Kobe had his 50+ run, you were silent. You got nothin' to say about the guy.

Total joke.

I addressed this on the deleted Jemele Hill/Kobe thread. I wasn't on the site for about 10 days, which coincided with Kobe's "Miracle Run" against the Memphises of the league.

I could put Kobe into the proper context any day, any time. I don't care if he scores 100. That doesn't mean anything. Kobe is a second banana, and that doesn't change when he scores 50, much as it doesn't change for Vince when Vince scores 50.

Nash had no talent in DAL? Ha. Ha-ha. BWHAHAHAHA. Yeah, Dirk and Fin sucked, I forgot.

Nash met a guy who appreciate him and ran the perfect offense for him, D'Antoni. Of course the rules changes helped, I never said they didn't. If the rules hadn't been changed, Kobe NEVER gets near 81, or the 61 he had against DAL through 3 qtrs. Believe me, I am fully appraised on the effects of the rules changes on individuals' games.

But no changes in rules will ever make Kobe the team player Nash is. He doesn't have it between the ears to do it.

You said before, CT, "How smart does a player have to be to not run out MJ (or Shaq)," trying to make light of what I said about Pippen vs. Bryant.

The easy answer is this: "Smarter than Kobe." You don't have to be smart, just smarter than Kobe. Or to put it more directly, less prideful.

Kobe got what he wanted, and in year 3, with a cumulative .500 record, it isn't looking too good.

That's what happens when a #2 thinks he's a #1.

 

[Chuck~Taylor]

Stop the hatin' Rok. Your Kobe fraud point is sooooo wrong. That's why when Kobe had his 50+ run, you were silent. You got nothin' to say about the guy.

Total joke.

I addressed this on the deleted Jemele Hill/Kobe thread. I wasn't on the site for about 10 days, which coincided with Kobe's "Miracle Run" against the Memphises of the league.

I could put Kobe into the proper context any day, any time. I don't care if he scores 100. That doesn't mean anything. Kobe is a second banana, and that doesn't change when he scores 50, much as it doesn't change for Vince when Vince scores 50.

Nash had no talent in DAL? Ha. Ha-ha. BWHAHAHAHA. Yeah, Dirk and Fin sucked, I forgot.

Nash met a guy who appreciate him and ran the perfect offense for him, D'Antoni. Of course the rules changes helped, I never said they didn't. If the rules hadn't been changed, Kobe NEVER gets near 81, or the 61 he had against DAL through 3 qtrs. Believe me, I am fully appraised on the effects of the rules changes on individuals' games.

But no changes in rules will ever make Kobe the team player Nash is. He doesn't have it between the ears to do it.

You said before, CT, "How smart does a player have to be to not run out MJ (or Shaq)," trying to make light of what I said about Pippen vs. Bryant.

The easy answer is this: "Smarter than Kobe." You don't have to be smart, just smarter than Kobe. Or to put it more directly, less prideful.

Kobe got what he wanted, and in year 3, with a cumulative .500 record, it isn't looking too good.

That's what happens when a #2 thinks he's a #1.

First of all, I never said Nash didn't have talent in Dallas. I said the complete opposite. heck, you just made my point.
And don't tell me this teamwork stuff. Kobe tried this year remember? And it would be a heck'ova lot easier to be a team player if....*drum roll*......he HAD TALENT AROUND HIM!

Again, you're comparing an aging Shaquille O'Neal to a Michael Jordan. Come on, now. And like GS said, when Shaq was on the Lakers, did Kobe every say "You know what, this offense needs to run through me." No, he didn't. You know why? Because he understood the situation. He knew that if he played second fiddle, he'd win championships. 3 to be exact.

Come on man, you're doing the ridiciolous VC vs. Kobe argument again? VC? Are you kidding me? You honestly think that Vince "I'm not gonna drive to the basket because my momma told me to keep shootin jumpshots" Carter is better then Kobe Bryant?

 

[RokSki]

Vince Carter and Kobe are both scorers by nature. That's the key feature of their game. It's the feature that makes sneaker companies pony up cash, and it's the feature that makes naive hoops fans foolishly swoon about scorers' 'greatness.'

Kobe used to be a great defender, but that only makes cameos here and there these days.

Kobe is 10 times the player Vince is, or was. The point is that scoring isn't the same as leading. That is, being a prolific scorer doesn't necessarily make you a great player, and it certainly doesn't ensure that you're a great team player. Vince is not a leader, and neither is Kobe. Being talented isn't enough to be a leader, just ask guys who play with Vince or Kobe. Neither guy is a leader, and it's very questionable whether either is a great team player.

When people - old schoolers - complain about guys being 'overhyped,' this is the type of thing they're talking about. Because 'Player Y' can dunk well, all the sudden he's "The Next Jordan." It doesn't work like that. No matter how much the league wants Kobe to be MJ, he isn't, and he isn't going to be. The league is still a meritocracy, and if you don't earn it, you don't get it. Kobe earned his spot as a legit. second fiddle, along the likes of Pippen and other great #2 guys in the history of the league.

But he has earned zip - NADA - as a #1 guy. As many said, we'll see how he likes the 'reverse MJ' action, that is, going from a title contender to 'The Man' on a team where it was all him. So far, the results speak for themselves.

It doesn't matter what you or I think about it - the results are there for everyone to see. Even with PJAX, Kobe's LAL is at best mediocre, and Kobe himself quit - quit - last year in game 7.

I'm not saying this is the Titanic, but you might want to watch out for that iceberg dead ahead. Those are the facts, not according to me, but according to any Basketball Almanac which can be picked up anywhere.

* * *​

Shaq is aging, I know. He was just 'aged' enough to get a ring last year, and he was aged enough two years ago to come within one rib injury and one toe injury of going to the Finals. Shaq is the constant, Kobe is the variable "x," with "x" representing a good perimeter player, be it Penny, Kobe, or Wade. That's what Payton and Malone understood. That's what Eddie Jones understands. That's what just about everyone in the league understands, save Kobe. Buss understands this, but he knew that there were enough rubes who bought the Kobe hype to keep making $ once Shaq was gone, so he said "fork it."

When Kobe either: A) Leads a team past the first round (something Vince did) or B) Gets a team past 45 regular-season wins, come talk to me about top-30 greatest, let alone top-5 greatest. Same with the MVP. When is the last time an MVP came from a team with less than 50 wins?

Like I said, this is "Andre Dawson for NL MVP" all over again. I don't make the rules, Chuck. This is just how the awards are done.

 

[Chuck~Taylor]

Vince Carter and Kobe are both scorers by nature. That's the key feature of their game. Kobe used to be a great defender, but that only makes cameos here and there these days.

Kobe is 10 times the player Vince is, or was. The point is that scoring isn't the same as leading. Vince is not a leader, and neither is Kobe. Being talented isn't enough to be a leader, just ask guys who play with Vince or Kobe.

Shaq is aging, I know. He was just 'aged' enough to get a ring last year. Shaq is the constant, Kobe is the variable "x," with "x" representing a good perimeter player, be it Penny, Kobe, or Wade. That's what Payton and Malone understood. That's what Eddie Jones understands. That's what just about everyone in the league understands, save Kobe. Buss understands this, but he knew that there were enough rubes who bought the Kobe hype to keep making $ once Shaq was gone, so he said "fork it."

When Kobe either: A) Leads a team past the first round (something Vince did) or B) Gets a team past 45 regular-season wins, come talk to me about top-30 greatest, let alone top-5 greatest. Same with the MVP. When is the last time an MVP came from a team with less than 50 wins?

Like I said, this is "Andre Dawson for NL MVP" all over again. I don't make the rules, Chuck. This is just how the awards are done.

Ok, so you're saying Shaq got the Heat a ring last year? Dosn't that negate your whole DWade for MVP campaign?
Secondly, do you watch the Laker games? Do you see how Kobe is so vocal on the court? How he tells everyone what to do and how he get's in someone's face when they do something wrong? That's not leadership? VC never did that. And you're also telling me that VC is as good as Bryant offensively? VC has never broken 27 points per in his whole career.
Again, you say Kobe is all about scoring. So 31 points per isn't good enough for you. Ok. How about 5 assists, 5 rebounds,and a steal and half per game. VC has never averaged more than 4 assists per game.
I can't believe you're telling me Kobe isn't an all around player.

Rok, this is the 452435325th I'm gonna say this. And I'll keep saying it over and over again. This is the Most Valuable Player award. Not the "Best player on the best team" award.

The Suns without Nash=Playoffs
The Mavs without Dirk= Playoffs
The Lakers without Kobe= Lottery

 

[RokSki]

I just had to redo my last post. Another poor 'first post' day for me.

 

[Chuck~Taylor]

You keep saying that 40+ with that team is terrible. With that talent, that's a friggin miracle.
You also forget how bad the Bulls were when they didn't put talent around MJ. When didn't have Scottie Pippen.
And are you gonna tell me that the Lakers would've won those 3 rings without Kobe?