David Cone and Orel Hershiser

[JC]

Hershiser, with his scoreless inning streak, has the equivalent of Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak. And from 1985-88, he was the best pitcher in the National League. Only four years, but without him, the Dodgers don't win the World Series in '88. The Dodgers don't get past the Mets in the NLCS and probably don't even make the playoffs. His 1988 season was one of the greatest in the history of baseball.
The pitcher I want to see in the Hall of Fame who probably won't ever make it is Jack Morris. He was probably the best pitcher in the decade of the 1980s, but is never in the discussion.

Morris turned in the greatest Game 7 pitching performance in World Series history. If he'd done it for the Yankees instead of the Twins he'd already be in.

Oh bullshirt. People have just become smarter when it comes to these things

 

[DanOregon]

I was thinking about pitchers recently, seems like there are several who are dominant for five or six years than fade out fewer who can get 10-15 wins a year over a 20 year career.
I don't know if there is a stat for pitchers who led when they left a game - but it seems that with fewer pitchers going seven or eight innings now, relief pitchers might muck up more than a few wins that a starter might have earned over a 20 year career.

 

[outofplace]

Why do people keep bringing up Buehrle in Hall of Fame discussions? A very average pitcher at best. Not even close to being a Hall of Famer.

We agree on something!

And I say no on Hershiser, yes to Cone. Hershiser had too many mediocre seasons.

Just shocking that you would think the long-time Yankee belongs.

 

[Smasher_Sloan]

Prediction: They will some day be Veterans Committee selections to the Hall of Fame.

If you've noticed, the revamped post-Mazeroski Veterans Committee hasn't been inclined to put anyone in. They accept the results of the regular ballot and don't serve as an appeals court.

 

[DanOregon]

Verlander is the only pitcher in his 20s who will have 100 wins by the end of the year. I really wonder if we'll see another 300-game winner given the way teams protect pitchers on their way up.
I'd put Morris in before Cone or Hershiser.

 

[BrianGriffin]

Why do people keep bringing up Buehrle in Hall of Fame discussions? A very average pitcher at best. Not even close to being a Hall of Famer.

He's better than you think. He has 46.2 WAR as we speak, should easily get to 200 wins, and is only 32 years old with no injury history whatsoever.

I know what you're saying. ERA always around 3.80-4.00. No dominant seasons. Not a high-strikeout guy. Definitely doesn't feel like a HOFer. And, ultimately, probably not one. But definitely better than average.

'definitely better than average' is light years from the hof, in my book. mussina's credentials are better than cone or hershiser's, imo. i know wins-losses are minimized more and more these days,, but cone having only five seasons with 15 or more victories in a hindrance. i get that his 5 world series rings are impressive, but at least two of his yankee rings had little to do with his contribution.

but i can see the support growing for cone and orel down the road, as fewer and fewer starting pitchers compile numbers comparable to theirs. that will help pettitte eventually, too. all of 'em are more 'hall of very good' guys, though, in my opinion.

interesting thing that cone is already off the ballot due to lack of support, considering he was beloved by the baseball writers who covered him regularly. i'd have thought that would've been more of a plus for him. maybe that sends a message that i have trouble quibbling with -- that the hof is for the most extraordinary players of their era.

i'm much more in favor of 'tough grading' than 'easy grading' when it comes to the hof.

To me, somebody probably needs to have a stretch in their career that at least resembles Hershiser's 85-88 stretch to be HOF material unless their accumulated stats just knock your socks off (a slightly more significant version of McGriff).

Hershiser's four-year stretch was just greatness. It was doomed to end though because his delivery was so odd it put all that torque on the shoulder and the rotator cuff injury was probably an inevitability given the pressure his delivery put on his shoulder. For the life of me, I don't see how he managed to pitch as long as he did without needing Tommy John surgery too because it just looked like there was all sorts of stress on the elbow in his delivery.

Of all the non-HOF mentioned in this thread, he's by far the best if you take them all at their peak (possible exception of Morris?). But I say that as somebody who, at the time, was a Dodgers fan (not so much any more).

 

[Mizzougrad96]

They can both go into the Jack Morris/Ron Guidry wing of the Hall of Very Good.

 

[Johnny Chase]

He's still playing, but one guy I've been adamant about getting into the hall is Johan Santana. No one was as dominant for a 5-6 year period, and if he can stay healthy he's still got a few good years left. The guy should have won three straight Cy Youngs, too bad Colon stole one from him in 2005.

 

[deviljets7]

Verlander is the only pitcher in his 20s who will have 100 wins by the end of the year. I really wonder if we'll see another 300-game winner given the way teams protect pitchers on their way up.
I'd put Morris in before Cone or Hershiser.

Yes.

Remember when everyone said Glavine would be the last 300-game winner? Sure enough Randy Johnson ended up getting there just a couple years later.

While it will be quite rare in this era of pitch counts, but it will still happen. We seem to have more quality young arms than ever before.

Also, while they are far from sure things for 300, Sabathia (173 wins and just turned 31) is well ahead of the pace of many recent 300-game winners as well as Verlander (100 at age 28) and King Felix (81 at age 25).

As a comparison, Glavine had 124 wins when he turned 30 and finished with 305. Maddux had 151 when he turned 30 and finished with 355. Clemens had 146 when he turned 30 and finished with 354 (steroid enhanced).

I'm not saying CC, Verlander and Felix are all going to get 300, but based on the pace they are on (compared to recent 300 winners), I like the odds of at least 1 of them getting to 300 at some point.

 

[buckweaver]

Morris turned in the greatest Game 7 pitching performance in World Series history.

Sandy Koufax just whizzed one past your ear. On two days' rest.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIN/MIN196510140.shtml

 

[Smasher_Sloan]

Verlander is the only pitcher in his 20s who will have 100 wins by the end of the year. I really wonder if we'll see another 300-game winner given the way teams protect pitchers on their way up.
I'd put Morris in before Cone or Hershiser.

Yes.

Remember when everyone said Glavine would be the last 300-game winner? Sure enough Randy Johnson ended up getting there just a couple years later.

While it will be quite rare in this era of pitch counts, but it will still happen. We seem to have more quality young arms than ever before.

Also, while they are far from sure things for 300, Sabathia (173 wins and just turned 31) is well ahead of the pace of many recent 300-game winners as well as Verlander (100 at age 28) and King Felix (81 at age 25).

As a comparison, Glavine had 124 wins when he turned 30 and finished with 305. Maddux had 151 when he turned 30 and finished with 355. Clemens had 146 when he turned 30 and finished with 354 (steroid enhanced).

I'm not saying CC, Verlander and Felix are all going to get 300, but based on the pace they are on (compared to recent 300 winners), I like the odds of at least 1 of them getting to 300 at some point.

Before turning 30, Jim Palmer had 152 wins, Bert Blyleven had 169 and Larry Dierker had 137. Palmer wound up with 268, Blyleven with 287 and Dierker with 139.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Hershiser is one of those guys who think would be worthy and then you look at his stats and he's just not... It's the same thing for Jack Morris.

Now that Blyleven is in, I can't think of too many starting pitchers who deserve to be in, but aren't.