Design thread

[DyePack]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

And we can all rely on the designer to spout off about it endlessly.

But if you question that same designer for failing to read a story or any of the other things he/she fails to do on a daily basis, then the feelings get hurt.

And then there is the out-and-out bullshirt that is spouted, such as your claim about 95 percent of readers wanting visual gimmicks. Still waiting to hear the proof of that huge lie.

 

[shotglass]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

You still refuse to recognize that page design and copy edit are two separate skills, and at many places, they are not even done by the same people. You don't want to acknowledge that because it shoots your rant right out of the sky.

 

[DyePack]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

You still refuse to recognize that page design and copy edit are two separate skills, and at many places, they are not even done by the same people. You don't want to acknowledge that because it shoots your rant right out of the sky.

I acknowledge it all the time. Most newspapers seem to think they are the same skill, or worse, that designing IS copy-editing.

 

[DyePack]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

A day in the life of a page designer/"copy editor":

4:30 -- Arrive 15 minutes late. After all, there isn't any copy ready at the start of the shift anyway.

4:45 -- The editors are wasting time in their budget meeting. At least I can read the music reviews on the wire while I wait.

5:05 -- They are finally coming out of the meeting. Guess I should find my pages and start setting them up.

5:20 -- Five stories for the cover again! How am I supposed to lay out a page with that much type?

5:45 -- The ad stacks won't allow me to design the inside pages the way I like. Guess I should wander over to the ad department and fight with them for a while. Who cares if that makes our section look unprofessional?

5:55 -- The ad people leave at 5. They have it easy.

6:15 -- Only 1 story so far. These editors sure are slow. I guess I could go in to the Waiting to Be Edited queue and at least find some mug shots. But I'll go to dinner instead.

6:55 -- Cut my dinner break short to see if any of these stories have been edited. But they haven't. Oh well, still some music reviews to read.

7:15 -- Now the copy is starting to move over. But it's all for the inside pages. How am I supposed to spend time planning my SND-award-winning cover?

7:50 -- The photog came back with an excellent vertical action shot. It's perfect for me to turn into a cutout.

8:20 -- Asshole photogs! They came by and told me they didn't want a cutout. No one at this newspaper understands true art.

8:55 -- The night editor is hassling me for inside pages to proof so they can be sent. What a deck.

9:10-9:25 -- Now the lead story is 2.5 inches longer than it was listed. I'm going to the mat on this one!

9:50 -- They still want more pages to proof. I'm not a factory, you know.

10:20 -- Hmm, I'm running a little behind. Guess I'll just skim the first paragraph or so and write the headline off it.

11:25 -- Too much text to jump. These editors need to do a better job.

11:55 -- Deadline is 10 minutes away. I guess I should finish touching up my award-winning cover so the last 5 pages can be proofed. I hope the proofreader can fix those headlines I couldn't write.

12:05 -- I'm STILL fixing headline type! Why can't they give us suggested heds?

12:25 -- Time to spend the rest of my shift on the cutout for that advance page.

2:00 -- It's a fine-loooking cutout. I guess the day shift can work on the rest of these pages tomorrow.

Next day -- 4:15 -- They have to run a clarification on one of the headlines. I guess they should have spent more time making that story more clear. I couldn't understand it. But these music reviews flow well!

 

[Songbird]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

And we can all rely on the designer to spout off about it endlessly.

But if you question that same designer for failing to read a story or any of the other things he/she fails to do on a daily basis, then the feelings get hurt.

And then there is the out-and-out bullshirt that is spouted, such as your claim about 95 percent of readers wanting visual gimmicks. Still waiting to hear the proof of that huge lie.

"Want" is not the right word here. If you show 100 people that page, 95 will say — and I truly believe this — "ooh, that's neat" or something like that. It goes back to a great line Kramer said in Seinfeld (though they probably stole it) that goes, "You don't sell the steak, Jerry — you sell the sizzle."

Designers are the sizzle. If you ask me, copy editors are the steak. I'm a one-man sports department. I'd kill to have a full-time copy editor. Maybe one day.

 

[DyePack]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

And we can all rely on the designer to spout off about it endlessly.

But if you question that same designer for failing to read a story or any of the other things he/she fails to do on a daily basis, then the feelings get hurt.

And then there is the out-and-out bullshirt that is spouted, such as your claim about 95 percent of readers wanting visual gimmicks. Still waiting to hear the proof of that huge lie.

"Want" is not the right word here. If you show 100 people that page, 95 will say — and I truly believe this — "ooh, that's neat" or something like that. It goes back to a great line Kramer said in Seinfeld (though they probably stole it) that goes, "You don't sell the steak, Jerry — you sell the sizzle."

Designers are the sizzle. If you ask me, copy editors are the steak. I'm a one-man sports department. I'd kill to have a full-time copy editor. Maybe one day.

Then show me the 95 people. I really don't give a shirt what you believe. Just show me some proof.

Also, I love your claim that "designers are the sizzle." Guess the idea that content comes first is just another chant designers use when it's convenient, huh?

 

[Songbird]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

Like I said before, buddy, I don't live there. I'm predicting those numbers.

Why are you so bent that so many people wouldn't like that package? Maybe they'll read the story — the content — and say "Oh, that story sucks" or "That's a good story."

But as far as FIRST IMPRESSION based on visuals of the package? I'm pretty gosh darn sure anyone is going to be drawn into the story based exclusively on that design.

 

[DyePack]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

Like I said before, buddy, I don't live there. I'm predicting those numbers.

Why are you so bent that so many people wouldn't like that package? Maybe they'll read the story — the content — and say "Oh, that story sucks" or "That's a good story."

But as far as FIRST IMPRESSION based on visuals of the package? I'm pretty gosh darn sure anyone is going to be drawn into the story based exclusively on that design.

I love it when designers use this argument because it shows they have never read a forking newspaper in their entire lives.

Do you think maybe the reader would look at it because of the topic? Or maybe they follow that team? That player? That sport? That athletic director?

Again, we have to change another saying: We HAVE to judge a book by its cover. Nothing like playing down to the page designers!

 

[Songbird]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

I'm still trying to figure you out, DP. You have a real chip on your shoulder.

 

[DyePack]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

I'm still trying to figure you out, DP. You have a real chip on your shoulder.

Just tired of hearing the lies the editors should be questioning but aren't.

 

[Songbird]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

I'm a sports editor of a small weekly. First and foremost, I want the words to tell the complete story.

Now, if I have time to make the package around the words look a little prettier, then I will. Most times, though, I don't have the time.

But I'm also a fan of BIG, so if a big paper can get away with going over the top, more power to it. Hopefully the content (the steak) exceeds the sizzle (the design).

 

[dooley_womack1]

Re: Design thread *Updated 3/25*

Don't skirt the issue, pal: Post some of your pages.

You would seem to be the one skirting the issue here.

I guess we need to change the saying: You have lies, damn lies, and designer statistics.

Still 0 out of 95 percent. Still waiting for the rest ...

I don't know where that paper comes from, but I stand by my assertion that if you ask 100 readers of that sports section how they feel about that package, 95 will say they like it based solely on its presentation.

So, buddy, what exactly do you do at your paper?

Not to get into the middle of this, but you're way, way too high on 95. Many readers will go away when they see the type is arranged weirdly, no matter how interesting the art concept is. This CP, admittedly probably does a good job of attracting the eye, not such a good job of keeping it.