Globe and Mail reports that NHL may be loaning money to Phoenix Coyotes

[Beef03]

How many teams are candidates to move? Might as well just look up the attendance figures and work up from the bottom.

I think it's more than just attendance alone. It's corporate sponsorships, suite sales, ticket prices, broadcast rights and all sorts of stuff.

It would be worth examining why Phoenix has struggled to avoid making the same mistakes somewhere else. I think there are a lot of dynamics in place. I've read the arena is in a less than ideal location. The team has been up and down, but did have three straight playoff years before this last one. Tickets seem to be affordable. Maybe the lease is not so good. It would be worth a good analysis.

Lease not so good? The city is paying them to play there. Sorry, it's not the lease. Part of it, I am sure is it's hard to get passionate about a team that is constantly under the threat of moving, but it is under threat of moving for some very good reasons.

Location of the arena. Everything I've read is it's a beautiful building, terrible location. You can backtrack on this thread for the platitudes.

Market. Despite the snowbirds, Phoenix is not a hockey market. Just as Calgary is not an NBA market. Nothing wrong with that, but it was a terrible move in the first place. If you can't sell out when you're practically giving tickets away to a division winning team, it ain't going to work.

Economy. When the recession hit Phoenix, I'm guessing corporate dollars for the Coyotes dried up as well.

Years of struggles. The last several years have been much better, but they were bad for a long time. Tough to really get a new to the sport fan base excited when you consistently deliver a shirt product. The Blue Jackets are finding this out as well.

 

[Mark2010]

I agree to a point. Any team that struggles on the ice is probably going to struggle at the gate. Edmonton should be struggling a bit more, given they haven't sniffed the playoffs since 2006. Ditto for Colorado. Somehow the Islanders survived years of suck-a-tude.

But, given those examples, I still think it's more than that. Yes, Phoenix was hit hard by the recession. And I've heard several people say the arena isn't so easy to get to from much of the metro area. Don't know how well they promote the team locally.

I understand that Phoenix is a crowded sports market with some teams that have been there longer than the Coyotes. Still, if other cities can make it work, why not?

That said, I guess the league/team need to fish or cut bait. This year-to-year uncertainty helps no one. Either commit for the long term or get the heck out sooner rather than later.

 

[PCLoadLetter]

It's about 80% the location of the arena, with the other 20% split between the perpetual uncertainty and the frequent crappiness of the team.

I live in the city of Phoenix. I am 50 miles from the arena, about 90 minutes away in game-time traffic. That arena is on the extreme western edge of the metro area, and the core of their fan base is on the east side. It's a very nice arena in a location that requires a major commitment for fans to make it to a game. It's in a terrible, terrible spot.

They did well in downtown Phoenix, but long-term it just couldn't work -- they had a bad lease and a quarter of the seats had a badly restricted view.

They got taxpayers to vote to build a new arena in Scottsdale in an absolutely perfect location. The team and neighborhood would be thriving. The Scottsdale city council decided that a business park would be a better fit. The Coyotes ended up in Glendale because it was their only option. They were signed, sealed and delivered to Portland if Glendale didn't work out.

There is enough hockey support in Phoenix to have a team here. The question is whether it can thrive in a bad location. If you take away the threat to move and put a competitive team on the ice I think it probably could, but we don't know yet, and may never find out.

 

[Beef03]

I agree to a point. Any team that struggles on the ice is probably going to struggle at the gate. Edmonton should be struggling a bit more, given they haven't sniffed the playoffs since 2006. Ditto for Colorado. Somehow the Islanders survived years of suck-a-tude.

You're also talking about established hockey markets that built their fan base on the success of some of the greatest teams of the last 30 years. The Jets went to the desert -- a brand new hockey market -- and sucked for the next 15 years.

I don't doubt they have their hardcore fans, even the Thrashers did, but it's not near big enough to drive to Glendale 41 times a winter to support the team.

 

[HanSenSE]

What else are people going to do in Edmonton during the winter? It's watch hockey, drink or have sex, or maybe all at once.

What are you going to do in Phoenix during the winter? Pretty much what the rest of the country does in the summer.

It's like the old joke: Most Canadians prefer it doggie style so they can both watch the hockey game at the same time.

(I'll be here all week, folks ... tip your waitress generously!)

But I'm beginning to wonder if the NHL in Phoenix was a mistake from the start? The hockey shortcomings of the Suns' arena had to be know before the vans left Winnipeg for Arizona, just for starters.

 

[Mark2010]

What else are people going to do in Edmonton during the winter? It's watch hockey, drink or have sex, or maybe all at once.

What are you going to do in Phoenix during the winter? Pretty much what the rest of the country does in the summer.

I suppose there is something to be said for multitasking. But that's a pretty serious indictment of a city.... "Oh, we'll draw fans no matter how bad the team is because the people have nothing better to do." Really?

 

[PCLoadLetter]

But I'm beginning to wonder if the NHL in Phoenix was a mistake from the start? The hockey shortcomings of the Suns' arena had to be know before the vans left Winnipeg for Arizona, just for starters.

Supposedly, they knew there were "a few" seats with a bit of an obstruction. They had already moved to Phoenix by the time they realized you could only see one goal from 4,000 of the 16,000 seats. The sightlines were weird from a lot of the others, too.

It was a remarkable screw-up, but the original owners were not particularly bright.

 

[Beef03]

What else are people going to do in Edmonton during the winter? It's watch hockey, drink or have sex, or maybe all at once.

What are you going to do in Phoenix during the winter? Pretty much what the rest of the country does in the summer.

I suppose there is something to be said for multitasking. But that's a pretty serious indictment of a city.... "Oh, we'll draw fans no matter how bad the team is because the people have nothing better to do." Really?

It's hockey in Canada in a major city. A city that derives much of its identity from the NHL franchise. They are THE show in Edmonton, just as they are in Calgary Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal — though I'm not to sure how committed the fans are in Ottawa and they too have a shirtty location for their building. The limit in a city like Edmonton, is when the owner is a crook (See Peter Pocklington) AND the team sucks, mixed with a bad economy and a shirtty Canadian dollar. Despite being the worst team in the league over the last five years, and playing in a pretty shirtty building in a lot of respects (I still love it), they still sold out just about every game, filled to a 99.8 per cent capacity over that time I believe, with ticket prices in the top quarter of the league. Much of that the last couple of years was based on the promise of the young guys. But the fans' patience is pretty much at an end. They have to start winning now or else those loyal fans will stop turning up. I think. Ah heck they'll still turn up, but they'll just bench that much louder on the sports radio station and fan boards about it.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Glendale officials are stating that by keeping the team, it would cost the city $2 million more than without the team, but only if Westgate remains viable.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20130701coyotes-deal-facing-vote.html

 

[Starman]

Glendale officials are stating that by keeping the team, it would cost the city $2 million more than without the team, but only if Westgate remains viable.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20130701coyotes-deal-facing-vote.html

LMAO -- some of the commenters suggest a 'solution' is to build ANOTHER hockey arena in Phoenix or Tempe.

 

[UPChip]

What a remarkably shirtty choice to have to make. Corporate extortion or financial ruin.

That being said, I think they need to cut bait. How does the situation legitimately get better?

 

[PCLoadLetter]

Glendale officials are stating that by keeping the team, it would cost the city $2 million more than without the team, but only if Westgate remains viable.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20130701coyotes-deal-facing-vote.html

LMAO -- some of the commenters suggest a 'solution' is to build ANOTHER hockey arena in Phoenix or Tempe.

Not as far-fetched as it sounds, if the tribe that built the Diamondbacks spring training facility gets involved. I seriously doubt it will happen, but that would be the worst-case scenario for Glendale.