High School football question

[Justin_Rice]

At that level it feels cheap.

You make good points.


Still: "Watch the ball and don't jump offsides" remains a valid strategy.

 

[fossywriter8]

I count them as runs, then add the penalty, even if the call was behind the line of scrimmage. So, yeah, sometimes I gotta give some poor guy a negative-yard run because the foul happened behind the line of scrimmage.

What gets really weird is on an incomplete pass with a holding penalty behind the line of scrimmage. I give the quarterback a rushing loss on a play on which he threw a pass.

I have no idea if that's right or wrong. I started doing it because if the penalty is 10 yards, the other yards have to be accounted for somehow. Nobody's told me otherwise.

Officials around here walk off plenty of 6- and 11-yard penalties, anyway.

I believe it goes down as TEAM rushing, at least that's the way we do it.

 

[apeman33]

I believe it goes down as TEAM rushing, at least that's the way we do it.

That makes sense. I'll have to remember to handle it that way the next time it happens.

 

[crimsonace]

What about a holding or illegal block penalty on a running play? In high school, those are 10-yard penalties from the spot of the foul so you get some weird distances marched off.
I've always counted those as runs and gave the person the yardage to the point of the penalty, then minus-10 from there, if the penalty occurred past the line. If the penalty is behind the line and it ends up being a 14-yard penalty or something like that, I just count all of the loss as penalty yardage and no run.
Never been sure if I've been doing it right or wrong all these years.

That is correct

Penalty beyond the LOS: Yardage to the point of the flag, then -10 penalty yardage (or whatever the penalty is)
Penalty behind the LOS: Penalty yardage measured from the LOS, no play

 

[crimsonace]

I believe it goes down as TEAM rushing, at least that's the way we do it.

Per the NCAA stat manual (which is what we generally use for HS stats), it's no play, yardage from the LOS.

 

[apeman33]

I don't know if some officials are doing it wrong then, because there have been spot fouls walked off from behind the line of scrimmage. So I either have to give some guy a loss, then a 10-yard penalty or I have to give a (X+10)-yard penalty.

 

[crimsonace]

I don't know if some officials are doing it wrong then, because there have been spot fouls walked off from behind the line of scrimmage. So I either have to give some guy a loss, then a 10-yard penalty or I have to give a (X+10)-yard penalty.

The officials do it correctly.

Let's say the LOS is the team's own 30. QB throws an incomplete pass, but a flag for holding is enforced from the 26 and spotted back at the 16. It's 14 yards of penalty yardage, but no play.

Alternate scenario
QB completes pass that breaks down the sideline for 30 yards. However, there's a holding penalty enforced at the 33. It's a completion, catch, 3 yards, 10-yard penalty.

Any penalty enforced at or behind the LOS (unless it's a dead-ball foul like unsportsmanlike conduct), the penalty yardage goes from the LOS and there is no play. Any penalty enforced beyond the LOS (or on a return), credit a carry (or pass attempt/completion/catch) the yardage to the point of the flag and then the penalty yardage. For any journalist covering HS sports, it's not a bad idea to have the NCAA statisticians' manual (which is free online) bookmarked just in case you get a weird situation.

 

[MileHigh]

It's the same thing if there is intentional grounding. Spot foul, loss of down. All of the lost yardage is penalty yards.

 

[apeman33]

Well, crap, then I've been doing it wrong all this time (on behind-the-line penalties). Then again, I've never had anyone else around who knew either.

I recall one road game where I was sitting near a juco SID who called intentional grounding something like a loss for the QB back to the spot and a zero-yard penalty.

 

[crimsonace]

It's the same thing if there is intentional grounding. Spot foul, loss of down. All of the lost yardage is penalty yards.

At least per NCAA stats rules, intentional grounding is really weird. (link: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Football/2018ez.pdf)

*-Credit the QB with an attempt and negative rushing yardage to the point of the grounding
*-Charge a penalty for zero yards
*-Give the defender credit for a tackle & a sack
*-Team pass attempt (but not a QB pass attempt)

Direct quote from the stats manual linked above:
"The passer is not charged with a pass attempt when forward pass is ruled intentionally grounded. Credit the passer with a rush attempt and yards gained or lost to the spot of the foul. Also, do not charge the passer with a pass attempt when he deliberately throws the ball to the ground to stop the clock, but charge the team with a pass attempt."

"A.R. 1. Team A's ball on Team B's 20. Adams fades back to Team B's 28 and intentionally grounds a pass after being pressured by Benton. A loss of down is assessed against Team A from Team B's 28. Charge Adams with a rush attempt and minus eight yards rushing. Credit Benton with a solo pass sack, a solo tackle, and a solo tackle for loss of eight yards. Charge Team A with a penalty for no yards."

 

[apeman33]

So that means the juco SID was right. The one way of ruling a play that I doubted in this whole thing has been right all along.

 

[NNDman]

* Regarding the penalty behind the line of scrimmage in HSFB: For years I gave the rusher negative yardage and posted the penalty from the spot of the foul. Then when I discovered this was wrong -- being the stickler I am for accuracy -- I went back over an entire season to credit a 2,000 yard rusher with his true total. I think he got an additional 12 yards to his original figure. This was in the late 90s
* The good old shuttle/shuffle pass. In the mid-90s in these parts only 1 team passed the ball much. Then this other team starting reporting what at the time was considered outrageous passing figures. Like 10-of-13 for 198 yards. Well, about half those completions were actually 1-foot flips with the receiver carrying the ball for gains well beyond the LOS. I had one these in a playoff game yesterday. QB and HB side-by-side in shotgun. Receiver goes in motion. High snap. HB tips it, QB tips it and finally the Receiver snatches it out of the air. I just recorded it as a rushing play. Lost 2 yards.
* The intentional grounding always seems to baffle me. I had one Friday night, so I appreciate the clarification crimsonace.