I’m a cop. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me.

[YankeeFan]

So, he should've eschewed any and every luxury in life, and sacrificed his own betterment in attending his "trade school/college," and taken the money his mom gave him and started his own business at 18?

I don't know if he should have or shouldn't have.

I just know that he didn't. And millions more just like him make the same decisions.

Are these good decisions? Is it worth talking about? Should it be a part of the discussion?

You make it sound like it's wrong to even bring it up.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

Imagine the money from these businesses stayed in the community ...

Alert: YF's account has been hacked by Baron ...

Actually, we agreed to switch IDs for the day just to fork around with everyone. Just look for YF's posts on why John Cena should turn heel.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Imagine the money from these businesses stayed in the community, since the owners and employees were members of it.

What money?

deck, seriously this is absurd.

You have to at least acknowledge that there is money to be made in these communities.

You tell me how a person is going to open a store in a poor community, hire people from the poor community, draw customers from the poor community, and, in this manner, lift the per capita income of said poor community.

You are advocating isolationism. It doesn't work. It's a disaster.

 

[amraeder]

I think that they're immigrants who came over with more capital than poor americans have.

Refugees, from some of the poorest countries on earth, who fled revolution, or communism, or other terrible situations, came over with pockets full of money, huh?

Read Nicholas Gage's Eleni:

http://www.amazon.com/Eleni-Nicholas-Gage/dp/0345410432

Tell me his family came over with pockets full of money.

I'll admit to not reading that. And I probably won't. What I have read is scholarly research on immigration.
And the groups that do well as immigrants in the macro sense are those that come over with larger amounts of capital. You can see this by looking at the relative success of Asian immigrants who come over as refugees, and therefore with less capital, (like the Hmong) and those that don't. Not shockingly, successful immigrant groups are generally the ones that come over with the most to begin with.
(Needed caveat apparently: That's not saying no refugees are successful. Just like not everyone who starts out with a silver spoon is successful. We're looking at macro trends here to see what we can learn).
As far as how those groups get their small businesses going once they get here (a relatively minor aside to the idea "why can't the poor just be like those successful immigrants! argument) the major sources of funding for immigrant small businesses, according to the us census are 1) their own capital, 2) debt form financial institutions. It makes the point that immigrant startups are significantly different than native ones in that immigrant startups rely much less on debt (from either financial institutions or borrowing form friends/family/others) than native ones.
The pooling of resources just doesn't seem to be the traditional first-generation story for small business owners. Instead it's one bringing capital with them from their native country. (Which is honestly a story going back to early American immigration. The poorest of the poor - at least from overseas countries - don't come here.)

 

[YankeeFan]

One other point I'll make: The main reason I pulled in the suburban model argument is because it forces people to drive a car to get to where they need to work and shop.

If you have more communities in which people determine it's feasible to walk to work, and then walk by the store on the way home from work, you'd have less of a need to drive a car... and for the working poor, they might go without a car at all (also eliminating the expenses that come with car ownership), and may not even need to spend money on public transportation.

Does it not make sense to develop our communities in a way so that people don't feel they have no choice but to take on a certain expense just so they can get to work and to the store?

Right.

And, many of the businesses in these areas are owned by folks who don't live in the community, and they employ family members who also don't live there.

That's why ownership of local businesses by community members is crucial. They would employ community members who could walk to their jobs.

And, communities need to encourage alternate transportation resources.

In some communities, this means Dollar Vans.

In more upscale communities, it means Uber and Lyft.

Guess what business models are under attack by regulators?

 

[Dick Whitman]

So what's your plan for getting the blacks to stop buying tattoos, iPods, and gold teeth...

Shouldn't this at least be a part of the plan?

Is it now?

Are Rev. Al, or any of the other civil rights leaders talking about this? Shouldn't they be?

OK, now we're finally forking getting somewhere.

So one thing that separates poor blacks from poor immigrant populations that have succeeded, in your estimation, is poor leadership?

 

[YankeeFan]

Is a truck and a lawnmower beyond the reach of a few hard working kids from Ferguson?

Given what I've read about the court system of Ferguson, Mo., it might just be.

You don't get $321 in fines and fees and 3 warrants per household from an about-average crime rate. You get numbers like this from bullshirt arrests for jaywalking and constant "low level harassment involving traffic stops, court appearances, high fines, and the threat of jail for failure to pay."
If you have money, for example, you can easily get a speeding ticket converted to a non-moving violation. But if you don't have money it's often the start of a downward spiral that is hard to pull out of:

For a simple speeding ticket, an attorney is paid $50-$100, the municipality is paid $150-$200 in fines and court costs, and the defendant avoids points on his or her license as well as a possible increase in insurance costs. For simple cases, neither the attorney nor the defendant must appear in court.
However, if you do not have the ability to hire an attorney or pay fines, you do not get the benefit of the amendment, you are assessed points, your license risks suspension and you still owe the municipality money you cannot afford….If you cannot pay the amount in full, you must appear in court on that night to explain why. If you miss court, a warrant will likely be issued for your arrest.
People who are arrested on a warrant for failure to appear in court to pay the fines frequently sit in jail for an extended period. None of the municipalities has court on a daily basis and some courts meet only once per month. If you are arrested on a warrant in one of these jurisdictions and are unable to pay the bond, you may spend as much as three weeks in jail waiting to see a judge.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/ferguson-and-the-debtors-prison.html

Honestly, that's a huge problem, and it's a racket.

It needs to stop, and should be addressed ASAP.

I drive all over Chicagoland.

You know where you see the most red light and speed cameras? In shirtty neighborhoods.

It's a tax on the poorest members of the communities.

Frankly, I'd outlaw the forking lottery, and cigarets too. They are taxes on the poor as well.

 

[YankeeFan]

Also, you know you can't just use SNAP money for any old thing you want, right?

These neighborhoods are historically undeserved by grocery store chains. It's been in all the papers. They call them "Food Deserts". (Thank God I didn't write "Food Desserts".)

So, convenience stores, with high margins, due to little competition, make a lot of money selling food items, and accepting SNAP.

 

[MisterCreosote]

I think the point is that selling to customers who pay with SNAP can be profitable. Which, of course, is unspeakably evil.

Which brings us back to square one: The startup money is just not there.

I ask this seriously: Has anyone here ever lived below the poverty line?

I have. For about seven years. Excluding day-to-day expenses and eschewing credit, it would've taken me three or four years to save up enough for a shirtty, $700 pickup truck. Make it an even five if I wanted a month or two's worth of insurance.

Using the GOT-JUNK example: If I had lived on the street, and never ate anything and had no expenses whatsoever, it would've taken me almost a decade to have enough to buy into a GOT-JUNK franchise. I could've reduced the expenses I had by 20 percent, and it would've taken me only about 75 years to accumulate that much money.

 

[MisterCreosote]

Also, you know you can't just use SNAP money for any old thing you want, right?

These neighborhoods are historically undeserved by grocery store chains. It's been in all the papers. They call them "Food Deserts". (Thank God I didn't write "Food Desserts".)

So, convenience stores, with high margins, due to little competition, make a lot of money selling food items, and accepting SNAP.

If someone's main, or only, source of disposable income is SNAP money, they can use it as consumers only. Not to start businesses.

So, "money in these communities" doesn't really equal "money in these communities," if you know what I mean.

 

[YankeeFan]

I think the point is that selling to customers who pay with SNAP can be profitable. Which, of course, is unspeakably evil.

Which brings us back to square one: The startup money is just not there.

I ask this seriously: Has anyone here ever lived below the poverty line?

I have. For about seven years. Excluding day-to-day expenses and eschewing credit, it would've taken me three or four years to save up enough for a shirtty, $700 pickup truck. Make it an even five if I wanted a month or two's worth of insurance.

Using the GOT-JUNK example: If I had lived on the street, and never ate anything and had no expenses whatsoever, it would've taken me almost a decade to have enough to buy into a GOT-JUNK franchise. I could've reduced the expenses I had by 20 percent, and it would've taken me only about 75 years to accumulate that much money.

OK.

But, let's assume for a second that a family member, or family friend, or respected community member owned a Junk Truck, or a Dollar Van, or a Dunkin Donuts.

Let's assume you busted your balls working for this guy, putting in 80 hours a week.

Let's assume you did a great job for him, and helped him grow and manage this business.

And, working all of these hours, even at a low hourly rate, let's assume you scraped together a couple of bucks.

Do you think this guy might back you in opening your own Junk Tuck, Dollar Van, or Dunkn' Donuts in a neighboring community?

The problem in Ferguson is that Big Mike probably didn't know anyone who owned a small business, or who would hire him based on a recommendation from grandma.

 

[Songbird]

The "no angel" story said Big Mike was good at taking things apart and fixing them.

Could've started a small fix-it business and grown it. Not everything has to be delivery or food or mowing lawns.