John Elway

[Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!]

Look at the statistics Elway put up after Reeves was fired, from 1993 to when he retired. He was better in every category. Some of them dramatically better. He turned 33 in 1993. Did he somehow just magically get good? The five best passer ratings of his career all came after 1993.

It's not coincidence.

Except post season (including Super Bowl appearances).

"Reeves and Elway guided the Broncos to six post-season appearances, five divisional titles, three AFC championships and three Super Bowl appearances (Super Bowl XXI, XXII and XXIV) during their 12-year span together."

Elway's Super Bowl win over Atlanta, was against Reeves. Who used much of the same formula he used in Denver to build the Falcons into a Super Bowl team.
You don't get to three Super Bowls in four years with a shirtty team, shirtty coaches and the World's Greatest QB. That's no coincidence either.

No one is disputing Elway isn't one of the all-time best.

 

[Double Down]

Look at the statistics Elway put up after Reeves was fired, from 1993 to when he retired. He was better in every category. Some of them dramatically better. He turned 33 in 1993. Did he somehow just magically get good? The five best passer ratings of his career all came after 1993.

It's not coincidence.

He did also have crazy talent on those teams. Sharpe, Davis, Atwater, Zimmerman, Schlereth, Nalen, Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey.

Shanahan knew how to use Elway. Reeves and Phillips did not.

Which goes back to my original point. After he got out from under the thumb of a bad offensive coach, and he got some real talent around him (a HOF tight end, for starters) he stats got much better.

This isn't baseball. Not all stats are comparable.

 

[Double Down]

Look at the statistics Elway put up after Reeves was fired, from 1993 to when he retired. He was better in every category. Some of them dramatically better. He turned 33 in 1993. Did he somehow just magically get good? The five best passer ratings of his career all came after 1993.

It's not coincidence.

Except post season (including Super Bowl appearances).

"Reeves and Elway guided the Broncos to six post-season appearances, five divisional titles, three AFC championships and three Super Bowl appearances (Super Bowl XXI, XXII and XXIV) during their 12-year span together."

Elway's Super Bowl win over Atlanta, was against Reeves. Who used much of the same formula he used in Denver to build the Falcons into a Super Bowl team.
You don't get to three Super Bowls in four years with a shirtty team, shirtty coaches and the World's Greatest QB. That's no coincidence either.

No one is disputing Elway isn't one of the all-time best.

Please read my posts again if you're having this much trouble with my point. Gerhig's ridiculous point was about stats. You keep talking about Super Bowls. It's like I'm speaking Latin and you're responding in Chinese.

 

[Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!]

Look at the statistics Elway put up after Reeves was fired, from 1993 to when he retired. He was better in every category. Some of them dramatically better. He turned 33 in 1993. Did he somehow just magically get good? The five best passer ratings of his career all came after 1993.

It's not coincidence.

Except post season (including Super Bowl appearances).

"Reeves and Elway guided the Broncos to six post-season appearances, five divisional titles, three AFC championships and three Super Bowl appearances (Super Bowl XXI, XXII and XXIV) during their 12-year span together."

Elway's Super Bowl win over Atlanta, was against Reeves. Who used much of the same formula he used in Denver to build the Falcons into a Super Bowl team.
You don't get to three Super Bowls in four years with a shirtty team, shirtty coaches and the World's Greatest QB. That's no coincidence either.

No one is disputing Elway isn't one of the all-time best.

Please read my posts again if you're having this much trouble with my point. Gerhig's ridiculous point was about stats. You keep talking about Super Bowls. It's like I'm speaking Latin and you're responding in Chinese.

About 10 seconds after I posted this, I got it; a universal translator.

Paenitet

 

[LanceyHoward]

One reason that Elway had so many fourth quarter comebacks is that he was a lot better quarterback in the shotgun than he was under center. So when the Broncos got behind they would go shotgun and Elway would be more productive. If you look at the statistics Elway's most efficient year by far under Reeves was 1987. tackle.

That year a good Bears team that still had a lot defensive players left from the Super Bowl team of two years before came to Denver. The Broncos were 4-3-1. Reeves decided he could not run the ball against the Bears and goes shotgun the whole game. Elway throws for 341 yards, runs for 35 and the Broncos win 31-29, The Broncos ran the shotgun as a base offense the rest of the season, win five of their six remaining games, and go to the Super Bowl.

After the season Reeves decides the shotgun is a gimmick, trades for Tony Dorsett and decides to return to a ball control offense, despite having a mediocre offensive line. I will always wonder what Elway's career would have been like if he had a coach smart enough to play shotgun as a base offense. But Elway, even in an idiotic offense, and the defense were good enough to prop up Reeves for a long time, so it never happened.

 

[exmediahack]

As a Chiefs fan, Elway with the ball down late scared the crap out of me every damn time. That has to count for something.

In Elway's rookie year, the Raiders won the Super Bowl -- the last AFC team to win the Super Bowl for 14 years, when Elway's Broncos upset an overconfident Green Bay team.

Denver made a lot of Super Bowls against weak AFC fodder. Lots of wins over Cleveland, the Jets and Houston along the way. Not exactly running the gauntlet of Gibbs' Redskins' Walsh's 49ers or Parcells' Giants.

I don't doubt Elway's HOF credentials or even being a Top 5 quarterback. I will argue that, had Denver been in the NFC from 1983 to 1996, do they even get to the Super Bowl once?

 

[Bubbler]

Is this even a serious thread? My bias is obvious, but since the merger, Elway is the second-greatest quarterback in the NFL.

No forking way.

He's great, but not second-greatest since the merger. I'd take Staubach, Montana, Manning, Brady, maybe Favre, maybe Rodgers (if he keeps up), maybe Young, maybe Brees, maybe Fouts and maybe Marino over Elway. If Tarkenton counts (about half his career was before the merger), I might take him too.

Still great, and in the end, a winner, but the hagiography about Elway because he finished on top gets tedious. He's an average (for an all-timer) 45th all-time in interception percentage, and for someone with decent mobility, he got sacked a ton (73rd all-time).

He did a lot of great things too and aged very fine indeed.

Bad receivers? Not sure I'm on that train. He had decent receivers, no better than that, but he usually had an accumulation of them. Mark Jackson, Steve Watson, Ricky Nattiel and Vance Johnson? None are All-Pros on their own, but as a unit, that's not an easy group to account for coverage-wise.

There's no doubt his running backs, until Terrell Davis, where almost uniformly brutal. You'd get an oddball 1,000-yard season out of someone like Bobby Humphrey, but it was flukey.

Saved for the absurd, inept and highly laughable line that Elway is "average" all-timer. Seriously?

His interception rating is very average for an all-timer. Reading comprehension.

 

[JC]

Is this even a serious thread? My bias is obvious, but since the merger, Elway is the second-greatest quarterback in the NFL.

No forking way.

He's great, but not second-greatest since the merger. I'd take Staubach, Montana, Manning, Brady, maybe Favre, maybe Rodgers (if he keeps up), maybe Young, maybe Brees, maybe Fouts and maybe Marino over Elway. If Tarkenton counts (about half his career was before the merger), I might take him too.

Still great, and in the end, a winner, but the hagiography about Elway because he finished on top gets tedious. He's an average (for an all-timer) 45th all-time in interception percentage, and for someone with decent mobility, he got sacked a ton (73rd all-time).

He did a lot of great things too and aged very fine indeed.

Bad receivers? Not sure I'm on that train. He had decent receivers, no better than that, but he usually had an accumulation of them. Mark Jackson, Steve Watson, Ricky Nattiel and Vance Johnson? None are All-Pros on their own, but as a unit, that's not an easy group to account for coverage-wise.

There's no doubt his running backs, until Terrell Davis, where almost uniformly brutal. You'd get an oddball 1,000-yard season out of someone like Bobby Humphrey, but it was flukey.

Saved for the absurd, inept and highly laughable line that Elway is "average" all-timer. Seriously?

His interception rating is very average for an all-timer. Reading comprehension.

OOP just got a stiffy.

 

[JC]

I don't doubt Elway's HOF credentials or even being a Top 5 quarterback. I will argue that, had Denver been in the NFC from 1983 to 1996, do they even get to the Super Bowl once?

No. But critical thinking seems to escape sports fans.