Should Pete Rose be reinstated?

[dooley_womack1]

Oh, he was was a degenerate horseplayer. But the Hall issue deserves better than extrapolation without proof

Without proof of what? That he gambled before he managed or not? On baseball or not?

There's no proof he gambled on baseball as a player. So the only thing keeping him out that's part of the record is gambling he did as a manager. Which isn't the role that's up for consideration as far as him as a Hall of Famer.

 

[dooley_womack1]

That restaurant serves kids, right?

Not in the kitchen.

I think you're missing the point if that's your quibble.

The scale of crimes from a societal point of view doesn't always match the scale for a particular industry.

In journalism, would you rather hire a wife-beater or a guy who made up quotes?

If the plagiarist, before being such as a reporter, wrote great headlines and made copy sing (without any evidence of him making up quotes), I'd love them as a Hall of Fame copy editor.

 

[BTExpress]

Heck, a plagiarist (George Harrison) is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

 

[Joe Williams]

In journalism, would you rather hire a wife-beater or a guy who made up quotes?

Neither. In journalism, we would rather lay off both.

 

[dooley_womack1]

Heck, a plagiarist (George Harrison) is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

So's John Fogerty, who plagiarized himself.[/irvingazoff]

 

[Ben_Hecht]

If your ace pitcher is in on the fix, it's pretty much a done deal.

Regardless of Lefty Williams' degree of enthusiasm for the fix, he got lit up like a fireworks factory in the deciding game.

Only guy to lose three WS games until (if memory serves) some Yankee did it, a zillion years later.

 

[Ben_Hecht]

If your ace pitcher is in on the fix, it's pretty much a done deal.

Regardless of Lefty Williams' degree of enthusiasm for the fix, he got lit up like a fireworks factory in the deciding game.

Having your family's well-being threatened by people who you know aren't playing beanbag will induce that kind of behavior.

 

[Ben_Hecht]

Real tragedy is that if Red Faber (another most-proficient WS starter) wasn't sidelined by injury, there's no way the fixers reach for it, since it's highly-unlikely Faber would have gone for the scheme.

 

[buckweaver]

Real tragedy is that if Red Faber (another most-proficient WS starter) wasn't sidelined by injury, there's no way the fixers reach for it, since it's highly-unlikely Faber would have gone for the scheme.

White Sox had a LOT of good arms that couldn't go the distance because of injury or illness in '19.

In addition to the HOFer Faber, you also have Benz, Russell, Scott and Danforth, more-than-serviceable veterans who all got hurt ... and then there's the mysterious John Picus Quinn, who was basically stolen from the White Sox by Ban Johnson in 1918 and went on to win 247 games.

Impossible to say how Gleason would have lined up his starters with any or all those guys available, but you can be certain Cicotte and Williams wouldn't have started six of eight games.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

If your ace pitcher is in on the fix, it's pretty much a done deal.

Regardless of Lefty Williams' degree of enthusiasm for the fix, he got lit up like a fireworks factory in the deciding game.

Only guy to lose three WS games until (if memory serves) some Yankee did it, a zillion years later.

George Frazier in the '81 WS against the Dodgers.

Sad thing is, Frazier was actually a very good relief pitcher who just had an awful series.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

Here are my thoughts of some players from the Black Sox Scandal.

Buck Weaver: I think just about everyone agrees that Weaver just had knowledge of the fix. It was clear from the beginning he was playing hard.

Chick Gandil: Conveniently retired before the 1920 season started. Probably the most dirty of any of the players, and helped throw games. Probably started the whole thing, although he was incensed when he didn't get his money, and stopped trying to lose in the field and at the plate after Game 5. His hits in the early games came when they were least needed.

Swede Risberg: He went 2 for 25. I heard someone say that, in Risberg's defense, he was a bad fielder, but I think that's pretty much a fairy tale. Even Gandil tried after Game 5. Risberg was just completely dogging it.

Happy Felsch: A power-hitter and a good fielder, it's a shame he was involved in this. Felsch had the potential to be a VERY high-quality ballplayer. And he threw everything down the crapper in 1919. Felsch's batting average is indicative that he wasn't dogging it right till the end, and more likely changed his mind after getting the reduced amount of money.

Fred McMullin: A utility player, it's not exactly obvious if McMullin was fixing games or just in on it. He stated to Risberg he wanted to be in on it, but from his two at-bats, we garner a .500 batting average. Then again, he didn't even take the bat off his shoulder or even LOOK at the ball during his first at-bat (according to Christy Mathewson). My guess is he was throwing until Game 5.

Shoeless Joe Jackson: Ultimately wound up just having knowledge of the fix, but had an amazing series, not making any errors and batting .375. But why did Jackson acknowledge that he let up in key situations? One could point to his CS, and to the fact he went hitless in the first game. After the next two games (2 and 3), in which Jackson exploded at the plate, he imploded. But then, in Games 6, 7, and 8, he hit well again (which is consistent with all but Risberg and Williams' patterns of suddenly coming to life). Was Jackson throwing games at the plate only (his only fielding gaffe seems to have been letting Happy Felsch go after a ball; Felsch proceeded to make two errors on the same play), and also on his own time? Although he didn't go to the meetings, he may have concocted his own plan on his own time. It would explain the tremendous guilt he felt for the rest of his life (versus the tremendous anger of Buck Weaver) and also repeatedly acknowledging he threw games.

Eddie Cicotte: The only reason Cicotte didn't throw his last start was because he wasn't getting the money he wanted. He was as crooked as a snake. It sickens me how much support this guy gets despite the fact, unlike Jackson, it was EXTREMELY obvious that he was throwing games. And don't tell me he threw a complete game for Game 4...he also comitted two errors, which were obviously intentional from Fullerton and Mathewson's accounts.
Lefty Williams: VERY obviously crooked. Hit hard in Games 2 and 5, and utterly shelled in Game 8...Hugh Fullerton compared him to a guy throwing BP, I believe.

Actually, Williams only gave up four hits in both Game 2 and Game 5. Hardly the definition of "hit hard". He did give up the majority of his runs in one inning in both of the losses, which Asinof attributed to seeing how badly Cicotte let himself be rocked, and how he tried to be more circumspect about it.

And, as it's been said on here, he supposedly was threatened with harm, along with his family for Game 8. Even then, he had given up three runs in the first, with a baserunner that was his later scoring for a fourth run before he was taken out. The Sox still had plenty of time to come back in that game, but the other relievers, who weren't in on the fix, were ineffective. Had they held the fort, the other hitters, both those who were pissed off at not receiving their money plus the "clean" players, could have made a comeback and forced a Game 9. Which, if that had happened, all bets would have been off (no pun intended).

Also, according to Asinof, Cicotte received his money before the series began, and decided to pitch his normal game in Game 7 when the other players weren't receiving their share of the fix money.

 

[Gehrig]

Oh, he was was a degenerate horseplayer. But the Hall issue deserves better than extrapolation without proof

Without proof of what? That he gambled before he managed or not? On baseball or not?

There's no proof he gambled on baseball as a player. So the only thing keeping him out that's part of the record is gambling he did as a manager. Which isn't the role that's up for consideration as far as him as a Hall of Famer.

Your post couldn't be more irrelevant imo, as he's not eligible. The HOF does not elect "careers", they elect "people.".

Let's say for argument's sake Pete never bet on baseball as a player, however.

He walked past the huge poster sized sign explaining clearer than crystal - the repercussions of gambling on the game. Several times each day in the clubhouse before the game, then past it again out to BP, again coming back, again out to the game, and again several times after.

1,500+ times per year, and tens of thousands of times over the years while playing.

Then he becomes a manager and defies what he's walked past over and over and over for decades? If he indeed did just that, not only should be be permanently ineligible because the rules clearly state that is the penalty, but he's even more idiotic than someone with a gambling addiction who bet as a player and manager.