Ukraine Always Get What You Want

[Neutral Corner]

This is video of some of the Russian armor coming in from their Far East army. Note that this is old, 80's/90's vintage stuff, with all sorts of possible storage and maintenance issues.

OTOH, the ones with the four guns sticking out the front are ZSU 23-4's, which are semi competent as anti air, but are devastating as as direct fire weapons in city fighting. The have 4 23 mm guns that fire 300-400 rounds a minute, and can rip apart an apartment building in seconds. If they get to the point that those are being used in Ukrainian cities that's going to be bad juju indeed.

 

[WriteThinking]

I find it odd that the U.S. and NATO countries will give Ukraine a lot of cash and toys and intelligence but still sits on the sideline.

This is a real-life game of Risk with a lot of dice rolling over one country. It's like the world is making Ukraine prove itself.

And it's sickening.

Because Biden said in his SOTU address that the U.S./NATO will defend "every inch" of their interests and those of any country in NATO if that is necessary. As I said a couple days ago, "OK, so, what about Ukraine?"

It is all but surrounded by NATO countries. It has fought this totally wrong, unprovoked war to the best of its ability, under a leader that every country is probably wishing it had; they're trying to do the right things, and pleading for help. And, for all the aid we're giving with cash, defensive weapons and intelligence -- I won't say we're doing nothing -- the fact of the matter is, we're not doing what the Ukrainians need most. Apparently largely because Ukraine is not a NATO member.

Anybody notice how Finland and Sweden applied to join NATO today? How much do you want to bet that our treatment of Ukraine -- our rather blatant, and frankly, very telling inaction at the height of need -- was a prime motivator? You know, since the whole world can now see that any real help will only come with NATO membership.

 

[Batman]

Another side effect of the invasion: A couple of crucial gases that are used in the manufacture of semiconductors have about half of their worldwide production in the Ukraine.

Low on gas: Ukraine invasion chokes supply of neon needed for chipmaking

 

[Brooklyn Bridge]

And it's sickening.

Because Biden said in his SOTU address that the U.S./NATO will defend "every inch" of their interests and those of any country in NATO if that is necessary. As I said a couple days ago, "OK, so, what about Ukraine?"

It is all but surrounded by NATO countries. It has fought this totally wrong, unprovoked war to the best of its ability, under a leader that every country is probably wishing it had; they're trying to do the right things, and pleading for help. And, for all the aid we're giving with cash, defensive weapons and intelligence -- I won't say we're doing nothing -- the fact of the matter is, we're not doing what the Ukrainians need most. Apparently largely because Ukraine is not a NATO member.

Anybody notice how Finland and Sweden applied to join NATO today? How much do you want to bet that our treatment of Ukraine -- our rather blatant, and frankly, very telling inaction at the height of need -- was a prime motivator? You know, since the whole world can now see that any real help will only come with NATO membership.

To be fair, both countries are involved with NATO but aren't full members.

 

[heyabbott]

Is the present pentagon leadership and Biden so cold to let Russia waste it ground forces and large portion of its field artillery and tank corps while letting Ukraine act as a punching bag? Let russia tire itself out and build a casualty list that will cause internal rebellion?
Is Russia incapable of bringing up its front line tank corps? It's air superiority bombers? Or is it being readied for the real war on the Baltics ?

 

[Neutral Corner]

Anybody notice how Finland and Sweden applied to join NATO today? How much do you want to bet that our treatment of Ukraine -- our rather blatant, and frankly, very telling inaction at the height of need -- was a prime motivator? You know, since the whole world can now see that any real help will only come with NATO membership.

That had nothing to do with it, or little at least. They are both on Russia's border, and have been dealing with Russian threats and incursions for decades. They looked at what Putin was doing to Ukraine and and decided to join Team Bigger Armies.

 

[TigerVols]

So a school getting bombed or a nuke plant being shelled in Poland is worth risking nuclear apocalypse but the same can't be said for the kids or nuke plants across the boarder in Ukraine?

I'm coming to the conclusion if we are not willing to go into battle against a nuclear power unless a smaller nation has signed a piece of paper with us, then we should decide that our military is solely for the defense of our shores and we should slash their budget at least in half.

There is no conceivable threat to continental USA that a quarter of our Navy and Air Force can't quell.

 

[Neutral Corner]

 

[Brooklyn Bridge]

For anyone looking for a positive spin. Not sure if this is true, but it sounds encouraging.

 

[WriteThinking]

And of course "civilized" = white.

It hits closer to home when people look more like you. That's just a fact. Look at the fundraising the IRA did in the states during the Troubles.

I don't believe that's the case here. I know I, at least, had not given one iota of thought or notice to anybody's color or ethnicity in this whole situation -- until I looked at your post.

What I think is resonating with people is the clearly changing values of Ukraine, and yes, we see them as more closely resembling what were always ours, too, and so, yes, "civilized" in that way. But it's not necessarily because of race or ethnicity.

We're taking offense -- or should be -- at the the clear, wanton destructiveness that is being, literally, allowed, against those said values, and we are pretending that Ukraine is a vacuum, all by itself, while Putin is allowed to operate in it how ever he pleases, as long as it's no skin off our noses, of course.

 

[WriteThinking]

The very clear red line of invading a NATO-allied country. It's a bit like the antecedent-behavior-consequence (ABC) that I had to use with my son when he was a toddler—we've made it very clear that we won't intervene directly with US military forces in Ukraine because they are not a NATO member, and we've made it just as clear that we will invoke Article 5 and defend any NATO member he does attack. The antecedent is already there. It's up to Putin what his behavior therefore will be, and what consequences there will be as a result.

What? And no one thinks there will be any danger of a nuclear response by Putin if the U.S./NATO answers back directly, with manpower and air coverage, to an attack on a NATO country?

That's what's wrong with this whole situation. We are being hypocrites.

 

[WriteThinking]

That had nothing to do with it, or little at least. They are both on Russia's border, and have been dealing with Russian threats and incursions for decades. They looked at what Putin was doing to Ukraine and and decided to join Team Bigger Armies.

That's pretty much what I thought I said. They looked at what Putin was doing, and can see that they'll get no real help without being in NATO.