2007 Hall of Fame vote: Would you vote for McGwire?

Actually, Rose admitted it in his book, and on ABC/TV, in 2004. The statement he signed in 1989 was that he agreed to a 1-year suspension with eligibility to apply for reinstatement, but without admitting guilt. Of course, the Dowd Report overwhelms any case Rose had for "proving" he never bet on baseball. He did -- and 14 years later, he finally admitted it.

(Zeke wasn't taking Rose's side on this ... I think, right?)

 

If Pete Rose bet on baseball, he broke the rules of baseball. McGwire may have broken the law of the land by taking steroids, if he in fact took them, but did he break the rules of baseball?

Also, Good Doctor, if I remember correctly the statement Rose signed was kind of like a "no contest" plea, not an admission of guilt, but not disputing the evidence in the case against him.

 

No, buck. Although I think, after he dies, he should be in the HOF. That's his punishment. He never gets to know, and never gets to profit from it.

My point was that people have been excluded from the HOF on circumstantial evidence before. Like a friend of yours, oh, what was his name again...

And small potatoes, doesn't baseball fall under the laws of the land? If your theory had any merit, people would have been taking steroids out in the open back then, and would freely admit it now, rather than stammering and bawling and insisting they don't want to talk about the past.

Tell me, why aren't they?

 

zeke, as much as you don't think I'm getting something, I don't think you're getting the other side of this.

If the players who PERFORMED the best between the lines aren't in Cooperstown -- cheating or not, steroids or not, betting or not -- then Cooperstown is cheapened. It can't truly be considered the place where baseball's top players are enshrined.

If some pill-popper goes out and hits 79 homers next year ... he still did it. You don't get to rewrite history or act like it didn't happen, unless you are to totally remove the season from the books.

 

He was the best. Hit, run, throw ... he could do it all. But those guys are all gone now.

 

FINALLY SOMEBODY SAID IT! Thanks, Buck. This guy is no Hall-of-Famer...500 home runs or not, congressional choke or not. He's nowhere near one of the best...

 

And that, I can live with, if somebody thinks his body of work is not worthy of Cooperstown. The "punishment for misdeeds" argument is where I have a problem.

 

Zeke,
In sports like powerlifting and bodybuilding, there are federations that do not drug test. Competitors in those federations can and do use drugs without any consequences from those organizations. Drugs aren't specifically allowed according to their rules, but because there's no testing, they're not specifically banned either. The people who compete in those organizations in their daily lives, are subject to the law of the land. If law enforcement agents catch them with drugs, they will be prosecuted and subject to whatever punishment the courts feel is appropriate, but there will be no disciplinary action from the federation.
As best I can tell, that's kind of the way things were in baseball in the '90s.

 

shot --
It's not that I don't understand that position.

The problem with it is, that ship has sailed. HOF membership requires something more than on field dominance, or Shoeless Joe and Rose and others would already be there. I didn't make it that way, I'm just cognizant of it. If you're saying that they all should be there, that's fine; it's an intellectually viable position.

That said, there is a case to be made that, when comparing McGwire's numbers with his contemporaries, he wasn't all that dominant a complete baseball player.

And to whomever said that he has to be in because of breaking the single season HR record: How'd that argument work out for Roger Maris?

 

Hell, Maris was 4x the all-around ballplayer McGwire was. Too bad he couldn't stay healthy, and wasn't cut out for the limelight. He was a helluva player.

 

OK, we're on the same page.

Question. Rose, of course, had the body of work. Did Joe Jackson, or did his career end before he put up Hall numbers? I'm really not sure.

 

Since you asked...

Joe Jackson compiled a career BA of .356 in 4981 at-bats. He struck out just 158 times over those at bats in 13 seasons, or a little more than 11 times a season. He stole 202 bases and racked up 1772 hits.
He led baseball in hits twice, total bases twice, doubles once and triples three times. And two of his best three seasons were the last two before being banned.

So, yeah, I think he was in, almost certainly if he plays a couple more seasons.
Baseball Reference lists his most similar by age as:
Stan Musial
Tris Speaker
Paul Waner

Perhaps one on the rare instances where the reality meets the hype. He was that good, run, hit, throw...