All Purpose NBA Thread I

Hey Rok, you say you're a Shaq guy, right?

Do you believe that Steve Nash's last two MVPs were "tainted"?

You're also a DWade guy, correct?

Do you believe Dirk can't come through in the clutch? Do you believe Dirk was the reason they lost the championship?

 

Dirk's a choker, for sure. So are all the Mavs. I'm not saying they won't outgrow that, but they weren't ready to do it last year.

Nash's MVP's were legit in my book. I'd be totally fine with him winning a 3rd straight. He's better than Dirk, all-around. Without Nash, nothing the Suns do works. It's all built on what he brings.

Solid MVP ballot. It's not what I would put, but it's solid. I'm not trying to not respond, I'm just floating all over the 'net right now.

 

Wow, we actually agreed on something tonight . If I had to pick between Dirk or Nash, I'd have to go with Nash.

 

Since people are throwing out MVP Top 5, I'll throw mine in:

1. Nash (best player on one of the top two teams in the league ... hard to argue)
2. Dirk (see Nash comment ... Nash orchestrates the offense, so he gets the nod)
3. Kobe (best all court and most clutch player in league ... without him, the Lakers are praying for Oden or Durant)
4. McGrady (he's Kobe without the late-game clutchness ... he's stepped up his game this year and he may actually win a playoff series)
5. Duncan (Always solid, if not spectacular ... Spurs having a great season and they'd be nowhere without him).

Note: I think Shaq deserves some consideration for keeping the Heat in the playoffs while Wade's been injured. I think Shaq has missed too much time to merit serious consideration but he deserves some credit for his play this season. He was carried to a title last season by Wade and Co. He's carrying his share of the load this time around.

Rok, I know you probably thought I'd have Bryant No. 1 on my list. Not yet. I agree with you, he's not the MVP this season. My disagreement with you stems from the fact that I think he deserves more respect from you than he gets. That's all.

 

You're right, he does. I admit that. I still believe what I believe about him, but he is an amazing individual talent who works incredibly hard. He was/can be all-defense when he's healthy.

Much of my position comes from what I perceive as the 'over-fawning' of the Buchers, Simmonses, and recently Jemele Hills (and eds.) of the world. Without that, my position wouldn't exist, or it wouldn't exist to the same level of fervor.

I still owe you a response to you other post. I'm about done for the night, though, it's been a long night. Keep up the good work.

 

Ok, this post is long overdue

Honestly, I'd have to go back and watch the tapes again, but this is definitely not how I remember things. But I certainly could be wrong.

O'Neal's first trip to the Finals in '95 allowed him to see a mature, unselfish Hakeem consistently beat double-teams with accurate passes to open wingmen. What I remember from the Lakers' 3-year run is Shaq passing out of double-teams to guys who were either wide open or singled. No one benefited more from Shaq's attention than did Kobe. But maybe my memory's off. Wouldn't be the first time.

Sacramento didn't have anyone who could guard Shaq, neither did Portland. Shaq loved to destroy Sabonis. We all remember 'Sheed yelling at Sabonis because Shaq was just killing him. Divac was ok with Shaq, but nothing special. The only West team during that run that had anyone even close to matching up with Shaq was SAS and Robinson. I'd put Mutombo up against any of the other West centers, easily, during that stretch, particularly as a defender.

What the East teams did more so than the West teams against Shaq was single him. This was first extensively used by Philly during the Lakers' second championship with Shaq + Kobe. The West guys didn't single him as much, and so Kobe had much more success against the West teams.

The reason why DET beat LAL in 2004 was because they were able to single Shaq AND single Kobe (with Prince). They did not get Shaq the ball enough, and Kobe shot them right out of the series.

The key lesson of the whole Lakers 5-year run was this: Unless you had David Robinson (and Tim Duncan to play help D), the only way to beat the Shaq-led Lakers was to single Shaq for long stretches. None of the West teams figured this out, and that's why they kept losing. That's why Kobe did so well in those series, and not as well in the Finals. But again, Shaq is the key here. If Shaq's not doubled, Kobe doesn't go off. Again, that's why the Lakers couldn't beat DET - Too much Kobe, not enough Shaq when Shaq was singled. As great as Kobe is, he's just another guy for Shaq, same as Penny, same as Wade. Shaq is the table-setter, the 'game-changer' that everything else revolved around in LA, ORL, and MIA. Kobe got the benefits of that in the western conference playoffs during those years when teams kept doubling Shaq.

No, he wouldn't, because he hated the way Buss catered to Kobe. Shaq and Phil both came to understand that Kobe was Buss' chosen one, and they weren't. So Shaq said "F' This," and got himself traded. It wasn't about money, it was about respect, and Shaq essentially said "I'll prove you wrong," and last year he did. Kobe and proving Shaq wrong? Not so much...

One thing I'll definitely agree with you on is that KB isn't open as much, which, again, is why he went off in those western conference playoffs.

Kobe has improved from last year. Which isn't hard, seeing as how he 'decided' to become a team player (after deciding he wanted to win the scoring title) at the start of the playoffs. Unfortunately, such a strategy leaves teammates with 82 games of 'tape' in their heads to try to unlearn in about 2 weeks. We all saw how that worked out.

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Shaq can be a petty ass, and I've said that repeatedly. But here's the difference between Shaq and Kobe: The top guy - the ACTUAL top guy, not the guy who THINKS he's the top guy - can get away with that because if he's not happy, you don't win. The problem Kobe, Buss, etc. made is mistaking Kobe for the top guy. That was the fatal mistake. Sure, Shaq is a jerk. I can handle that when I'm winning rings. I'll take Shaq the jerk over Kobe the Pitchman (and Kobe's much shadier than Shaq, let's be honest here) given the results of the last 3 years.

Kobe and Buss didn't understand who really held the cards in the balance of power. Shaq believed he did, he acted on it, and now he has a ring and the Lakers are going home in the first round. Shaq was right, the Lakers were wrong. It was an awful, idiotic decision. PJax knew, which is why he blasted Kobe in his book. Two sides each thought they were right. Shaq was actually right, and now Buss and Kobe are left with egg on their faces. They were warned, by numerous people. I have ZERO sympathy for Kobe and Buss. They forced this, they got what was coming to them.

No, my argument is all about the large picture, which is why I bust guys' chops who get caught up with 60-point, meaningless games against the Memphises of the world. That and $100 will get you a ticket to watch the 2nd round of the playoffs.

I use small stats here and there only to buttress my larger argument. The reason I started a thread about the historic loss to the Mavs and the two career-long 7-game losing streaks for PJax was to counterbalance the bogus 'Kobe is the greatest' hype. It's kind of like Moses knocking over a gold calf. Why do you think Kobe puts so much effort into things like winning the ASMVP? He knows better than anyone that his 3-year .500 run as leader smells rotten, and he's looking for PR points. I'm not falling into that trap, and I get disgusted when I see others either unwillingly (Jemele) or willingly (Bucher) go down that road. People need to understand that this Laker 3-year run has included some of the lowest moments ever in the storied franchise's history. That story needs to be told. I'm not here to do Stern's or Buss' biding; that's what Ahmad Rashad is for.

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The larger argument about Kobe is this: Kobe had the stones - the pride - to believe he was as good and important as Shaq was to the Lakers, despite all evidence, logic, and history to the contrary. He was going to be "MJ," he was going to be the next guy who didn't need a dominant center to win a bunch of rings. Well, he's not, and he's not going to be, apparently. And that doesn't make him a failure - MJ's the ONLY guy ever to really do what he did without a great big man.

Kobe is not a victim. He is not a hero, and I'm only talking about on the court here. He is just another guy whose reach exceeded his grasp. Shaq knew the score early on, knew that Kobe thought he was his equal, etc., and he didn't like it. That might not be smart on Shaq's part, but it darn sure well was correct on Shaq's part. People tried to dissuade Kobe and his ego, to no avail.

And here we are. This is why I have enjoyed this whole 3-year+ drama so much. I don't hate Kobe, personally - I hate what he's about and what he represents. He's a pampered, insulated, ungrateful guy who thought he was more than he was. And he is getting his proper comeuppance, as is the case with any number of similar athletes in various sports. Kobe is an example, a warning, a lesson of how not to do things, how not to make choices. That's why I come back to him so much, because he is so highly-regarded and so loftily-held. He's about as good of an example to get this point across as any athlete I can think of currently, and that's why I bring him up as much as I do.

Say whatever you want about Shaq, but he grew up with a strict, military father and he understands the chain-of-command. Kobe grew up isolated, in Italy, in high school right to the NBA. He didn't learn a ton of social skills. He was constantly fawned over and given extra rope. Kobe is a spoiled baby, there's no way around that. He's Daddy Warbucks' kid who finally finds a situation he can't buy himself out of with his talent. Shaq isn't like that, and that's one reason guys around the league love Shaq. Shaq is real; Shaq is you and me, just a super-sized version. Kobe is totally different.

To be honest, I feel bad for Kobe. After the whole CO fiasco, Newsweek ran an excellent piece by a female writer basically detailing Kobe's socially stunted background and basically laying out the roadmap to how he could have ended up in the CO situation. It was probably the best piece on the subject I ever read (If I can find a link to it, I will put it here). It gave you a lot of insight into Kobe's thinking and his inner circle, and it just made you feel bad for the guy who got too much, too soon and didn't have the background to deal with it when it all came to him, as many athletes don't, unfortunately.

I hope Kobe has a great career, a great marriage, etc. And I mean that. But I cannot wish for his NBA success because it would send an awful message to growing athletes, and to everyone. Everyone - from GW Bush on down - has to be accountable for his or her actions, and Kobe is no exception. He got what he wanted, and Shaq is gone. He got rid of PJax for a short time. Well, here we are, 3 years later.

Be careful what you wish for, and don't overvalue yourself, or this could happen to you, or me. That's what Kobe Bryant means to me.
Kobe is a parable to me; the whole situation is a parable to me.

I'm a hard-core NBA guy, that's my blood, that's what I love. As much as I love the NFL I'm still more of a hoops fan, so this whole drama was bound to have an impact on a fan as great as I am of the sport.

This is my interpretation of it.

Hope that helps, Gimpy

Sorry to be so verbose, but we're definitely in my 'wheelhouse' here. I could write a dissertation on this.

 

No Rok. That move was not idiotic. Why in the world would you take an aging Shaq over a young Kobe Bryant(arguably the best player in the league)? Answer me Rok., If Shaq would've come back to the Lakers, and Kobe would've left to play for the Bulls(he was very close to signing with them), would Shaq ever win a ring?

Another thing Rok. When Shaq left, people dubbed the Lakers as a team that would rebuild. Why? Becuase: THEY HAD NO TALENT. Their team is just no good. Even if Shaq would've stayed, they'd still be the same, if not worse, then they are now and you know it. You need talent to win, period. Jordan, Magic, Bird, they all knew it.

EDIT: Here's another anothing you said:


Gimpy asked:
"The main reason the Lakers got rid of Shaq is because he wanted too much money. Answer me honestly, Rok. If the Lakers had given Shaq the money he was asking for, do you think he would've came back to the Lakers as motivated as he was with Miami? Be honest."


You answered:
"No, he wouldn't, because he hated the way Buss catered to Kobe. Shaq and Phil both came to understand that Kobe was Buss' chosen one, and they weren't. So Shaq said "F' This," and got himself traded. It wasn't about money, it was about respect, and Shaq essentially said "I'll prove you wrong," and last year he did. Kobe and proving Shaq wrong? Not so much.."



Rok, if Shaq would've been picked over Kobe, wouldn't the Shaq vs. Buss feud end? Buss would've showed he wanted Shaq. He would've showed he wasn't protecting Kobe.

Lastly, You mentioned what PJAX wrote in his book. Well then why did he come back?

 

You pick Shaq over Kobe because you can win rings with Shaq, like they did in MIA last year.

You pick Shaq because guys will sign to play with your team, like GP did last year and this year.

Chuck, it's all there laid out to see, man. Just take a look.

 

Rok, just answer me. If Shaq would've stayed, and Kobe signed with the Bulls, who would've won more games?

 

Honestly, I'm not sure. I'd have to look at the rosters. I'm not trying to duck. If the answer is Da Bulls, I'll be happy to say it, seriously.