Annual Rock & Roll Hall Nominee debate

Sirs, Madames,

Chic would be my pick for the honours. The most incredibly cool bass lines ever. So much more than Le Freak and Good Times.

The list of noms is usually uninspiring and commercially driven. Is Love in the HOF? That would be a priority for me. Mott? Same. Nod to Clifton Chenier? Fela Kuti or King Sunny Ade?

YHS, etc

 

I can't believe Alice Cooper isn't in. The Coop was huge in the 70s, very influential (certainly with his stage shows) and he also made some great fucking records in those days and Welcome To My Nightmare is one of the great concert movies.

Certainly he belongs in the Rock Hall more than someone like Leonard Cohen.

 

Rush will get into the RRHOF someday.
Longevity is the key. Jann Wenner and his cronies will no longer be around someday.
Rush will outlast them, even if the band retires. Their music (and that of other snubbed bands) will still be around.

 

The Moving Pictures tour was the first time I saw Rush in concert. Also saw the guys on the Signals, R30 and Snakes & Arrows tours. The latter two, I made it to the tour kickoff shows (R30 in Nashville, S&A in Atlanta).

I actually liked "Signals" and Geddy's use of synthesizers on that album. I saw them on the Signals tour 25 years ago this month, and, damn, they sounded great when they performed Countdown along with the video projection of the Shuttle launch (complete with smoke pouring from the bottom of the middle screen and very, very loud sound effects!)

Geddy, however, went a little overboard with the synths on the albums following Signals. Glad he finally toned it down, but I'll always enjoy his synth work on PWaves, MP and Signals.

 

I say it every year, but the fact this HOF took a decade to induct Black Sabbath shows they're not interested in honoring influence.

I'll add that a refusal to induct Rush and Genesis shows they're not interested in bands which became big while straying from the traditional guitar-bass-drum style.

Their obvious desire to squeeze in Madonna and the Beastie Boys shows they're not interested in acts which fill the whole "Rock and Roll" part of the title.

Really, the induction decisions consist of two things: What do little Jann Wenner and his buddies like; and who can they shoehorn into that particular year's inductees to ensure a sellout at the New York City party, far away from the HOF's actual site?

I understand the refusal to induct Rush. They're my second favorite band (and the second-best of all time, to my thinking), but ultimately they're a geek band with three virtuosos whose songs aren't the most easily consumed by the masses. Their fans love them, their non-fans refuse to regard them as anything other than total suckitude. But we fans are fine with that; keeps the ticket prices for their three-hour shows affordable.

But Genesis . . . . Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel have always had a certain cache with a lot of rock fans and critics. I have never heard of a faction of rock fans who just cannot stand them (unlike Rush). There is no logical explanation for why they're not in.

Their exclusion is as baffling as the Pretenders' inclusion.

 

I disagree with overuse of synth but check out another band whose cause I champion and I think you would understand. Without than synth, lots of quality Rush tracks get erased ...

Grace Under Pressure: Afterimage, The Enemy Within, Between The Wheels
Power Windows: Marathon, Middletown Dreams, Mystic Rhythms, The Manhattan Project
Hold Your Fire: Turn The Page
Presto: Chain Lightning, The Pass
Roll The Bones: Dreamline, Where's My Thing?

Also understand, though, that Geddy Lee is no Tony Banks on a synth. Not even close. But that extra element didn't hurt Rush at all IMO. Many, I suspect, disagree with that notion.

 

With Rush, the synths were merely another element. No one exactly chucked Alex out of the studio so that Geddy could play on a keyboard a little bit more.

For Genesis, there was little choice. While Steve Hackett wasn't a larger-than-life type of presence, his combination virtuosity and atmospheric quality was irreplaceable. Mike Rutherford is a very good bassist and while he can more than hold his own on a guitar, he doesn't have Steve's touch.

For further proof of Steve's contribution, listen to "A Trick of the Tail" along with "Wind & Wuthering," the two albums following Pete's departure before Steve exited himself. Truly great stuff.

I agree with the last statement. None of three concerts I went to caused me to take out a second mortgage or pawn my car.

But if we go by your theory, does Rush get locked out because it wouldn't pander to a lower common denominator? Were the guys supposed to be bigger self-promoters, wear outrageous crap for their concert sets or end up as regulars on the police blotter? Was Neil supposed to come up with the same crap everyone else does? Neil gets labeled "pretentious" by many of the anti-Rush faction. It's a pile of crap ... better to end up with that rap, no matter how unjustified, than water down lyrics and music strictly to bring in the masses.
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I'll never get this one, either. The group transformed dramatically over time, sure, but it was a run of more than 20 years with two members who left. When Pete left, everyone thought the band was dead. Phil wasn't the first, second or 20th choice to take over on vocals. But it worked, with a good drummer like Chester Thompson to take over on tours.

When Steve Hackett left, the band transformed its timbre - it had to. It worked. One listen to "Duke" is all the proof needed.

Given all the other acts the HOF has let in, why not Genesis?

 

I think the case for Genesis is a lot stronger than the case for Rush. I would guess the key challenges for Genesis are (a) some of their late stuff is kind of weak, and (b) some of Phil Collins' solo stuff is absolutely fucking awful, which shouldn't reflect on Genesis but it won't help.

I don't think the Pretenders' inclusion is all that baffling simply because they've been beloved by critics since the day their debut came out. I've never understood that praise, but I would have been pretty surprised if they didn't make it in the hall.

 

A. Only two of the group's last three albums could be in question - "We Can't Dance" had only two or three questionable tracks ("Never A Time," "Since I Lost You" and maybe "Way of the World") - and even the comparatively shaky albums had some quality work ("Domino," "The Brazilian," "Land of Confusion," "Alien Afternoon," "The Dividing Line," and "One Man's Fool").

Point taken. Not as good as "Selling England By The Pound," "A Trick of the Tail" and "Duke," but the guys didn't fall off the cliff.

B) Phil's first four albums were VERY good ... after that, crap.

If you're going to go by solo albums spawning from a group, PCLL, Genesis should be in without question. All five members from the early '70s lineup produced solo albums, including these first efforts:

Peter Gabriel: (Self-titled album)
Steve Hackett: "Voyage of the Acolyte"
Tony Banks: "A Curious Feeling"
Mike Rutherford: "Smallcreeps Day" (he did a couple of solo albums before forming the Mechanics)
Phil Collins: "Face Value"

Not a dud in the bunch in terms of musical quality - I'd rather use the word "stellar" but I'm an obvious fanboy already. Sure, Tony's albums never sold well, but again, we're talking quality.

 

I really like Genesis pre-'83 or so. Excellent stuff. As Sam Mills pointed out, the first post-Hackett departure albums are quite good, especially Duke.

Unfortunately, they were at their most popular after '83 with Invisible Touch, etc., a serious comedown from those other albums. That is what damns them. Basically, Genesis sold out. There's nothing like the virtuoso turns on that album as there were on their others.

And besides, Yes should be in before Genesis or any other prog band. Along with Pink Floyd to an extent, and King Crimson (who was so all over the place, they'll never get in) Yes is the template for all of the other prog bands, including Genesis.

 

Yes was more progressive, though I could never get into them the way I do Genesis, Rush or even Pink Floyd (at least "Dark Side" and "Wish You Were Here").

But Yes' lineup changes were so numerous that it made Genesis look like the most stable group on the planet. Should that hurt Yes for HOF consideration? I don't think so. But if we're going to make Genesis pay for "Invisible Touch," Yes will have to do the same for "90125."

At the risk of sounding even more fanboy-ish than I already do, I don't think "Invisible Touch" was selling out. More pop, absolutely, and there were no tracks that could touch "Squonk," "Blood on the Rooftops" or "Firth of Fifth," but the pop didn't suck. I mean, if "Land of Confusion" and "Jesus He Knows Me" didn't make you laugh, that's your problem.

 

Definitely belongs. And he had a song on a Friday the 13th soundtrack! As for Rush, best synth work was on Songbird.