Baseball Thread No. 17: Let's Get Dizzy, Mr. Dean

If Hamilton had kept up his first half pace, he'd have to be considered. The numbers would simply demand it.

As it is, he came way back to Earth.

 

Well, he's had another poor week since we last talked about him.

He's cooked.

 

Value to his team?

How the fuck do writers know that?

Dawson may have been on a last-place team, but they may have won a quarter fewer games without him.

Way too tough to determine value in many instances. Above writers' pay grade, to be sure.

That's why they need to change the name of the award. It's nonsensical that the best pitcher each year is selected, but not the best player.

 

I wasn't trying to ignore your point, OOP. I guess I misunderstood what it was. I don't think Manny's situation illustrates much about Delgado's at all, because even though they've both only been good for part of a season, they differ in two very important ways. Manny hasn't had nearly as big an effect on the Dodgers' performance, and he's done it over a much shorter period of time. If you're going to hold Delgado's first half against him, and you should, then the fact that Manny spent the first 3/4 of the year in the other league has to count against him even more. As to whether I'm over-emphasizing Delgado's second half, I don't think I am. I just think he's been so good, and so clutch, and his team's performance has improved so much, that it more than outweighs how crappy he was early.

 

There is a Player of the Year Award every year as well, Simon. I believe it's an AP thing. Sporting News used to give a Player of the Year Award as well.
Pujols is definitely the Player of the Year. He might also be the MVP.

 

Some anonymous award on offense. THE prominent pitching award is for best pitcher.

The best player is the player who would be the most valuable to anyone's roster.

Same fucking award.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, Simon, but if you allow me, I disagree. I think it's important to determine value and, obviously, each voter may look at that differently. That's what makes it so intriguing. Don't try to change history because you'll only be disappointed. MVP has existed for a long time and it's not going to change.

 

Christ....

 

Exactly. These things can change fairly quickly. Two weeks ago, Brandon Webb was still the top candidate for the NL. Now, Lincecum would be far and away the better choice.

And even a week ago, when Quentin took himself out of contention by hurting himself, most of us were saying Morneau and Pedroia had pulled away from the rest of the pack for AL MVP consideration.

 

That is where we may just have to agree to disagree. I think many of the people pushing Delgado for MVP are most definitely over-emphasizing what he has done since mid-June and ignoring just how crappy he was before that.

I think you have to factor in just how much he dragged the Mets down the first two and a half months of the season as well, which you don't seem to be counting against him. It's not like Delgado was hurt and out of the lineup all that time. He was just playing badly.

If anything, that makes the example of Ramirez even better. He wasn't out there stinking it up and hurting the Dodgers for 10 weeks the way Delgado was for the Mets.

 

Oh. My bad. I used a factual argument for once. I thought I was the greatest. thing. EVAR.

 

The problem with assessing value is that the only real way to make a judgment is to remove the player from the team and see what happens. That's oddly enough sort of the case for Delgado. When he sucked, the Mets did too. When he got hot, so did they. That's as close to cause and effect as you can get in baseball value judgment.
I reject the idea that a player on a non-contending team does not display value. We don't how bad they would have been without him. Without Pujols, the Cards might be down in Nats land.
There is almost a 100 percent correlation between Manny's performance and whether the Dodgers win or lose a game. He is THEIR MVP without question. NL MVP? Probably not.
Ryan Howard won't win. But to dismiss a guy who leads the league in homers and RBI because of his BATTING average? Com'on gang. I'm as old school an old fart baseball writer as this board possesses, and even I'm more sabermetric conscious than that.