Baseball Thread Rated X -- Mature Audiences Only

So, Mariano Rivera should not be in the Hall of Fame?

 

Their role is slightly above pinch-hitter in my book.

 

You didn't answer the question.

 

In my Hall of Fame, no.

In a Hall of Fame that has established that Bruce Sutter deserves to be in, absolutely.

 

You know, for most people, that "not good/durable enough" logic went out in the 1970s. That was Billy Martin's reasoning. That was Leo Durocher's reasoning. The game's just not the same anymore.

There is little durability in pitching anymore. Very little.

 

Cy Young to a closer is a travesty.
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Eric Gagne?

 

Normally I would agree with Columbo long before I would with Ohio State/Bush fanboy, but you are being mildly insane here. Mariano Rivera has single-handedly, more so than most, won the Yankees four World Series. Be it pitching long relief in 1996, or closing games in 1998, 1999 and 2000, or even when they didn't win the World Series, pitching just dominating innings like his three-inning stint in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. He did blow the 1997 and 2001 playoffs, but if any baseball, fan or writer had a chance to choose who they would have pitching a ninth inning of a Game 7 of the World Series (except for some really idiotic Red Sox fans) it would be Mariano Rivera.
He should be in the Hall of Fame because his numbers, especially his postseason numbers are out of this world.

In his regular season career:
He has pitched in 717 games, thrown 413 innings, allowed 224 ER, walked 226 and struck out 780. He is 59-40 with 413 saves and an ERA of 2.29.

In his postseason career:
He has pitched in 72 games, thrown 111 2/3 innings, allowed 10 ER, walked 15 and struck out 87. He is 8-1 with 34 saves and an ERA of 0.81.

Those are Hall of Fame numbers in my book.

 

That's 525 career innings?

That's barely more than two seasons for a starter.

And, even in that way, way overglorified role with its bogus stats, he has blown some huge games for the Yankees.

I've seen too many shitbums be able to "close" games for Rivera's stats to get me to sprout wood.

 

I think Hoffman will get in, even though he doesn't have nearly the case that Rivera does because of the post-season success. I've heard enough Yankee fans say that they don't win all of those World Series championships without him. Ask Joe Torre or the other players what he means to that team.

May I point out here I'm not a Yankee fan. When in doubt, I tend to root against them. It's the Pirate fan in me. Can't bring myself to like a team that has a payroll $100 million more than any other team in the game. But to dissmiss Rivera's value is foolish.

Sutter had a better case than Hoffman, too, because he didn't have as many one-inning saves and he helped change the game. Hoffman didn't really change anything. He has flourished in a role that was established for him.

To put these guys down near the level of pinch hitters is a joke and shows a limited understanding of how the game is played today. Yes, some mediocre relievers can rack up saves for a year or two. But to do it as well and as consistently as a Rivera or a Hoffman is an entirely different matter.

How many other closers have been consistently outstanding in that role for the last 5 seasons? Francisco Rodriguez is on their level now, but he was in the minors five years ago and he has only closed for two seasons. Joe Nathan was just making the switch from starter to reliever.

Billy Wagner and Jason Isringhausen are the only other relievers who have consistently been closers the last five seasons, though Isringhausen has never been as consistent as Hoffman.

Go back 10 years and there is nobody on Hoffman's level. He has at least 31 saves every full season he has played since he became the Padres' closer in 1995, failing to reach that number only in 2003 when he pitched only 9 innings due to injury. Even Rivera only goes back to 1997 as a dominant closer.

Dismiss saves all you want, but every single manager in the major leagues uses their closer in a similar fashion to how the Padres use Hoffman. They sure believe the role has value. And Hoffman has done it at a high level longer than any of his contemporaries.

Isn't that what the Hall of Fame is supposed to recognize?

 

I'm not going to get too involved with this argument, but I will say this -- if Rivera gets in the HOF, then Hoffman ought to be there, too. Going into this season, Hoffman had allowed 237 walks; in two fewer seasons, Rivera's at 215. The numbers are there across the board, too. (Excluding the postseason, of course, where Rivera owns everyone.)

You can't invite one to Cooperstown and not the other, in my book.

 

I am a Yankees fan, big time. But I have been in exile on the west coast, and Trevor Hoffman is a Hall of Famer in my opinion. I'm not going to look at a bunch of statistics now, although I may do that when I have time. I'll use Bill Madden's explanation when he paraphrased Potter Stewart - I know it when I see it.

I have two basic justifications -

1. The Padres made the playoffs four times since 1996, and I think they have won the division during those times. They are in the race this year, so if they get in, it will be five times in 10 years. Granted, they have only been to one World Series, but over the course of a long season they have been the most successful team in the NL West. They did that with one Hall of Famer thru most of that period, Tony Gwynn, and Gwynn hasn't been a factor in the last several years. The one constant is Trevor Hoffman. He is the biggest factor during that run. It's no accident. Other than Gwynn, tell me the biggest factor in the Padres success. The fact that San Diego is a west coast team, and a smaller-market west coast team at that, maybe overshadows how good Hoffman is.

2. Hoffman has converted close to 90 percent of his career save opportunities. Think about that and let that roll around in your head for a while. A great closer can blow a save on a couple of broken-bat base hits or an error. That rate is damn near perfection.

Columbo's comment about a closer being similar to a pinch-hitter bears a little more analysis. A capable closer's impact is much greater than any pinch hitter. A successful closer considerably affects the way a manager does his job. It means you probably have to use pinch hitters earlier and the game becomes a seven or eight-inning game. Bruce Bochy can play for one run in the last two or three innings knowing you have Hoffman.

Trevor Hoffman = Hall of Famer.

 

Just bought NLDS and NLCS tickets for the games at Dodger Stadium. Not sure if I can scrape up $156 per World Series game for a $10 pavilion seat, though.

If they make it that far, I'm sure I'll find a way.