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Biggest piss-job on Bonds to date

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by PhilaYank36, Jul 18, 2007.

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  1. Tom Petty

    Tom Petty Guest

    i watched Bondsplay his entire career. i don't need highlight film in order to form an opinion.
     
    Tom Petty, Jul 22, 2007
    #97
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    The comparison of hitters wearing body armor to a welder wearing a helmet is ridiculous.

    First off, with regard to batting helmets: a helmet on a batter protects his head, which is the must vulnerable thing that might get hit by a pitch. Batters also didn't decide to start wearing helmets because they were sticking their heads over home plate to somehow give themselves an advantage and as a result needed to protect themselves.

    Players want to protect their arms and elbows with hard plastic padding because they want to hang over the plate and dive into every pitch so they can turn on anything. It gives them an advantage. It's precisely because this isn't a safety issue--and it is a competitive issue--that baseball decided to crack down on body armor (even though the rule isn't enforced).

    You can cite stats that show more players have gotten hit by pitches over the last 10 years. So based on that batters say, "We need to protect ourselves with those big pads on our arms and elbows." But the reason more players have been getting hit by pitches is that batters started diving over the plate to give themselves more of an advantage. Before body armor, brushback pitches were also a more accepted part of the game. Competitively, that is the way the game was played. The pitcher wanted to keep the batter from being too comfortable in the batter's box. The batter wanted to crowd the plate. This "game within the game" was played on a fairly even playing field. If a pitcher started throwing at hitters, the other team's pitcher would get even. Batters couldn't load themselves up with gear that belongs on a football field. And they had to stay honest in the batter's box. So it all balanced out. What body armor has done is changed the competitive balance between hitter and pitcher. It's changed the game.

    Whether that is good or bad is a matter of opinion. But this isn't a safety issue. It's a competitive issue.
     
    The Big Ragu, Jul 22, 2007
    #98
  3. Chi City 81

    Chi City 81 Guest

    Ragu is dead-on with his post, with one small exception. I believe the "no body armor" rule is enforced, but players such as Bonds and Craig Biggio are grandfathered in due to past injuries. I don't think someone such as Pujols could decide today to say, "Fuck it. I'm wearing body armor."
     
    Chi City 81, Jul 22, 2007
    #99
  4. broadway joe

    broadway joe Guest

    It's both a safety issue and a
    It's both a safety issue and a competitive issue.

    Look, padding on a hitter's elbow doesn't keep a pitcher from moving him off the plate. There's still plenty of exposed flesh for him to aim at. Yes, it changes the competitive balance, but I would argue that it just evens it out a bit, because it was previously weighted heavily in favor of the pitcher in this area. He's the one with the ability to put a hitter on the DL if he doesn't like where he's standing in the box. The hitter has no such comparable ability. If you think an elbow pad takes away all of the pitcher's ability to threaten, I invite you to stand in the box against Justin Verlander with all the padding you want and see how safe you feel.

    An elbow pad hardly qualifies as loading yourself up with gear that belongs on a football field. It's protection for a particularly vulnerable area of the body, not unlike, yes, a batting helmet, or a shin guard that protects hitters against balls fouled off their foot. Catchers and home plate umps are padded from head to toe to protect themselves against that 90 mph fastball, but if a hitter wears one extra piece of protection, it's somehow grossly unfair?

    BTW, people talk about hitters crowding the plate and diving out after the outside pitch as if it's an evil that somehow must be stopped. Hitters have a right to stand anywhere in the box that they want and take any approach they want. Pitchers can still combat that by pitching inside, skillfully, elbow pads or not.
     
    broadway joe, Jul 22, 2007
    #100
  5. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    I'm not talking about a highlight reel. That's useless. Basically, I'm saying that I can't imagine you changing your mind without watching all those games again, which ain't gonna happen.

    You have your opinion. I have mine, which is actually backed by all those gold gloves awarded to a guy nobody ever liked. :)

    And the body armor argument is silly for one reason: It's legal. By all means, change the rules. But don't tell me it's unfair for a guy to use something the rules allow.
     
    outofplace, Jul 22, 2007
    #101
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Joe, The game has just changed. It didn't used to be the way you say. Pitchers didn't have an advantage because they could throw at batters with impunity. If a pitcher got crazy, his team's best hitter was getting drilled in the back in the next inning. The game policed itself. Now, what used to be an accepted part of the game--a part of the game that actually resulted in players getting drilled less than they do now because everything was policed naturally--has been taken away. Even hint at throwing inside and you might start a brawl. Warnings are issued at the drop of a hat. And as a result, the hitters have gained an advantage.

    Hitters have the right to stand anywhere in the box, as you say. It's when they began hanging over the plate--and wearing improvised protection to allow them to do it--that things changed. Decide for yourself if that is an evil that has to be stopped. But there was a marked shift in the game at some point--certainly it had taken hold by the time you'd see Mo Vaughn with something as big as a shin guard covering him from wrist to bicep, while he leaned over the center of the plate. This is how Barry Bonds bats, too. And yes, it does give a hitter an advantage, without the concern a batter would have had to have had in the past if he tried to take that advantage.
     
    The Big Ragu, Jul 22, 2007
    #102
  7. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    All of that is true. Which is why baseball should look at outlawing some, if not all, of the armor these guys wear to the plate.

    But if it's legal, I don't see how it is fair to rip Bonds for using it.
     
    outofplace, Jul 22, 2007
    #103
  8. ManfredMoore

    ManfredMoore New Member

    You could make the argument that facing more pitchers throwing 90-plus has made it easier for Bonds compared to Aaron. Bonds faces 90-plus heat almost every at bat. He's an athlete -- he's conditioned to hit that heat. Aaron might have had more instances where he'd face Drysdale one night, a changeup/curve artist like Johnny Podres the next and Koufax after that. Or Koufax for three at bats and Ron Perranoski for the fourth. I'm not sure that facing Juan Cruz throwing 94-95 after Randy Johnson is that much more of a challenge for Bonds.
     
    ManfredMoore, Jul 23, 2007
    #104
  9. Tom Petty

    Tom Petty Guest

    so, you're saying you're full of crap and i'm not, then, right? ;)

    and are those really chavez's gold gloves?
     
    Tom Petty, Jul 23, 2007
    #105
  10. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Not even close to what I'm saying, which I'm sure you know by the wink. And I didn't post the pictures. Just referred to them. I know I'm right, but I also know that it is too subjective a point to prove. But there are a bunch of Gold Glove awards on my side of the argument. And I highly doubt that Barry Bonds EVER got an award he didn't deserve because so many people dislike the guy. They had to be looking for reasons to give the awards to others, like the writers did with the 1991 NL MVP.
     
    outofplace, Jul 23, 2007
    #106
  11. Tom Petty

    Tom Petty Guest

    come on OOP, you can admit it.

    and, i still wonder how a guy wins a GG with two assists all season.
     
    Tom Petty, Jul 23, 2007
    #107
  12. pressboxramblings07

    pressboxramblings07 Guest

    How many World Series rings does Bonds have?
     
    pressboxramblings07, Jul 23, 2007
    #108
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