Bonafide Baseball Hall of Famers

why would you be so "liberal" about saying "yea" to many? it ain't the "hall of very good."

other points worth addressing:

--i'd have zero problem voting for vizquel. he was the american league's ozzie smith for a loooong time.

--fawn all you want about andruw jones' defense, but gold gloves for outfielders mean a lot less to me than defensive excellence at, say, shortstop or third base. a personal bias, perhaps, but i've seen many, many, many teams win titles with average or worse center field play. i just believe it's easier to quantify how many runs a great infielder prevents than an outfielder.

UPON FURTHER REVIEW: just examined andruw's numbers and they are much better than i expected -- five 100-rbi seasons, seven seasons with more than 30 homers, including a high of 51. that's a darn good resume, despite the recent tail off.

--as for the hits argument in rating hitters, rose rates way behind mantle, chipper and eddie murray in my eyes as a batting threat because of his lack of power. for example, jeter passed ted williams on the all-time hits list tonight, but only a fool would say that makes jeter a better hitter than williams, arguably the best hitter ever.

 

Hell, I don't think it's easy to "quantify" run prevention no matter what position you're talking about. Defensive fielding numbers make my eyes glaze over.

But sorry, shockey, I watched Andruw on a daily basis for more than a decade. He saved more runs for Braves pitchers than anybody else on the field, bar none. His face-forward diving catches on sinking line drive, sure-base-hits over second base were a trademark. Nobody else could play defense like him -- not named Mays, anyway. Run prevention was his specialty. 400 putouts for five consecutive years, something only he and Mays have done among outfielders since the Deadball Era? He was a fucking wizard.

 

I would say that others would say who I view as a Hall of Famer would be on the liberal side. Compared to those who thing there's only like five or 10 hall of famers, I'm more inclined to think there are more than that in an era and view them as worthy while others have rigid to very rigid standards.

 

And yeah, put me down for Vizquel, too. He was almost -- almost -- as good as Ozzie, for just as long, and Ozzie was the fucking GOAT.

And Omar was not as much of a slouch at the plate as Ozzie was. 2,600 hits is pretty damn good.

If Ozzie's in, Omar's in.

 

note my add upon reviewing andruw's offensive production. i'm sold on jones to the hall. BUT if he was a .250 singles hitter and still the center fielder you say he was, there wouldn't even be a discussion about him to the hall. it's just reality that outfielders have to hit, no matter their defensive skills, all's i'm sayin'.

 

how about catchers. it was pudge and piazza, with roid questions about both.
among active catchers, is posada in? definitely a level below those guys, although
his arm is more than a level above piazza. varitek has intangibles and is solid, but
can't see him making HOF. mauer looks like a lock, although he's still young.

 

Yeah, shockey, that's a valid point about hitting -- which is why as good as Garry Maddox and Paul Blair were defensively, they were rightfully ignored when it came to Hall of Fame voting, because outfielders do need to produce as hitters more than middle infielders to be valid candidates. No Mazeroskis or Vizquels in the Hall as center fielders, that's for sure.

That said, I still would disagree with what you wrote about fielding excellence for outfielders not meaning as much as it does for infielders. Just because they should be expected to produce more offensively doesn't mean their brilliance in the field isn't as valuable, if not more so, as a great infielder's.

Vizquel and Alomar were two of the greatest up the middle, but they were useless on anything hit over their heads -- Lofton was the one chasing all of those balls down. Those Indians aren't NEARLY as good as they were defensively if they've got some butcher in center between Belle and Ramirez.

 

Posada will be viewed as borderline candidate because the the position has been soooo weak offensively for the past decade and a half and he's a life-long Yankee (as of right now) who is part of the core of that dynasty. If Posada hadn't been platooned his first three seasons with Girardi, he'd have a much better chance.

It's Pudge, Piazza and then wait and see on Mauer, who is in if he doesn't have a crippling injury or fall off a cliff. McCann has started strong in his career but after that there's really nobody you can even project.

 

As a Hall voter, I have to say I'm glad many of you on this thread are not.

Others (I'm looking at you, bucky) I will be consulting.

 

Yep. It's too early, but McCann and Mauer are in the midst of making strong cases.
Mauer is the better player and much more well known obviously, but if McCann keeps doing what he's doing, he might end up going to 10 or 12 all-star games and winning 10 silver slugger awards. Dude can flat-out hit. And while he's not Bench behind the plate, he seems to handle a pitching staff pretty well. He'll have a shot if he stays healthy.

 

re: catchers

Pudge and Piazza are locks. No-brainers, on any level. Up there with Bench and Yogi and Campy.

Posada's a step below, and I don't think he'll make it, although he's got a good case. He's been very, very good for a long time.

In another era, Varitek would be a lock. Not so, in our offense-obsessed game today. Frankly, I'm not even sure he's borderline, either. Which is too bad. I've always liked him, going all the way back to his days at Tech. ("We don't throw at .250 hitters" should get him in anyway. )

(EDIT: OK, maybe not a lock. I'm a little biased. ... Thought his fielding stats warranted more Gold Gloves, but they really don't. And didn't realize he has exactly a league-average OPS+. That's pretty mediocre, for as long as he's been a regular. It'll dip below 100 by the time he's through. Anyway.)

Mauer and McCann are too early to project. No such thing as locks at that age. Too much can happen. But ... they're on the right track.

 

Agreed, except Piazza couldn't, you know, catch.