Bonafide Baseball Hall of Famers

Stieb is a good comparison. I definitely thought Stieb had a couple 20 win seasons. Stieb needed his last 3 years and probably 2 more to be good to very good to make the Hall.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/stiebda01.shtml

 

I know we've focused on pitchers here, but somebody else who hasn't been mentioned, and he's been around about as long as Buerhle: Albert Pujols.

Baring injuries, he's a definite HOFer.

 

Automatic entry for Buehle? Boy, I don't know. Let's just wait and see his final numbers.

More of a current wonder is if we're seeing our generation's Koufax in terms of no-hitters by a lefty, now that he has 2 (including a perfecto).

But I just looked it up, and Koufax pitched his fourth on Sept. 9, 1965, a perfect game, when he was 3 months shy of his 30th birthday. Buehrle is 30 and has 2.

When Koufax retired after 12 years at age 30 -- with a 27-9 record in 1966 even though the doctor told him to retire after '65 -- he was 165-87 with a 2.76 ERA, 2,396 K's, 137 CG, 40 SO, 3 Cy Youngs, 4-3 record in playoff games (0.95 ERA).

Buehrle is in his 10th season, with a 133-90 record, 3.76 ERA, 1,159 K's, 24 CG, 8 SO, 1.25 WHIP, and 2 no-hitters (one perfecto).

By no means am I suggesting Buehrle is in the same stratosphere as Koufax. But it's fair to compare the numbers since each has at least 10 years worth of full stats. Buehrle is 133-90 at age 30, and has 2 no-hitters. But again, I'm not sure the no-hitters alone get him into the Hall of Fame. He's going to have to put up some awfully impressive numbers for the next 8-10 years.


As an aside, because I was reading about Koufax's stuff on wikipedia, here's an interesting tidbit, which made me think immediately of Oliver Perez of the Mets.

The thing about Perez is that he's got some great stuff, when he's on. But he's goddamn awful with that control. What if he's just going through a faze of letting his brain get the better of him? Who's to say he just won't flip the switch and go on a tear like Koufax did, because Koufax wasn't all that special in terms of numbers for his first 6 seasons: 36-40, 405 BB and 683 K's. Everything that made Koufax Koufax happened from 1961 to 1966.

Anyhoo, couldn't help but think of Perez after seeing that line.

 

Bill is probably right. But I don't expect Clemens to get in the HOF in the next decade or so.

 

Good point. Maddux and Glavine - very similar, benefited from a 21-plus inch plate
in their prime. Both were not as good as Martinez. If he stayed in the NL, Glavine and
Maddux would probably have 3 combined Cy Youngs.

 

cjericho,

In my mind, Maddux was better than Glavine. Not by much, but better, and how you compare them I don't know.

But Martinez in his prime was not better than Maddux in his prime. Different pitchers, that's all. Maddux was a killer on the loose even if he didn't throw harder than 85 or whatever his top speed was. Just a master tactician.

 

yeah a master tactician, who threw strikes 4 inches off the plate. in those prime years, Maddux
was in the NL. Even if you only consider that he got to face the pitcher and forget the fact that the AL was a stronger offensive league in those years it makes a pretty big difference. I don't have the video evidence to prove it, but if you watched Maddux and Glavine you know they got a ridiculous amount of (off) the corners. Also Maddux in the postseason was mediocre.

 

Greg Maddux's peak was longer--he was at the top of his game for seven years. But nobody has put together two better seasons than Martinez did in 1999 and 2000.
Posnanski wrote about this on his blog a few months ago...here's the link: http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/04/28/more-on-maddux-and-pedro/

 

I know it's part of the equation because the AL uses the DL, but it's an inferior league because of it (yes, I'm a purist: put the bat in the pitcher's hands!). So I won't argue the extra batter v. pitcher thing. If that makes Pedro better because he faced 9 hitters instead of 8, so be it.

But he wasn't better than Maddux. Maddux owned his pitches and owned his batters. By all means necessary. Maybe he threw an inch or two off hte plate, but if batters don't have the discipline to stay away from those pitches, it's on them. And, of course, some might say the home plate umps were a bigger aid to Maddux than were the batters. That's a whole 'nother argument.

My bottom line is that Maddux and Pedro were nutbusters, equal in their devastation, only they took different avenues to achieve their goal. And let's not pretend Pedro didn't throw a few inches off the plate and not get the same called strikes Maddux did.

 

And Steib's career ERA is still a good bit lower than Buehrle's, 3.44 to 3.76.

 

Two no hitters hardly puts Buehrle in the Hall. Someone mentioned Vander Meer, and Hideo Nomo also threw a pair of no-hitters. He's not getting in either. At this point, Buehrle is not a sure-fire bet.

And it is baffling that anyone might think Pedro is anything but a lock.

 

Well, it's not just two no-hitters. It's one perfect game and one no-hitter, which was one walk away from a perfect game. 27 batters faced in each one.

That's pretty damn spectacular.