Bonds, the HR chase & the race issue

novelist_wannabe · May 9, 2007

Ragu be livin' strong today, I see

The Big Ragu · May 9, 2007

Chee, there was an extensive paper trail, a ton of third-party corroboration and recorded conversations linking Bonds to Greg Anderson, Victor Conte and Balco (and Bonds' usage of a variety of very specific steroids and HGH). Even though there is a great deal of belief that Clemens has used, there is nothing linking him to a specific distributor or any specific instances of usage. There is a huge difference between the mountain of evidence that Bonds has used PEDs and one player saying he's heard that Clemens is a user. And even when Grimsley pointed the finger at Clemens, it isn't like the story was ignored. It got a lot of attention, and ultimately went the way of a guy pointing a finger without there being a smoking gun. With Bonds, there *is* the smoking gun. Search the SF Chronicle. Read Game of Shadows. If you have, or can obtain that kind of evidence of Clemens' usage, I encourage you to write the stories or write the book. Trust me, the story won't get buried if you can document usage by Clemens the same way evidence of Bonds' usage has been documented.

The Big Ragu · May 9, 2007

Novelist, Is my head getting a little too big for the board? I think I'd change my user name to Lamar if it was the old days.

boots · May 9, 2007

Race does play into the equation but its not the biggest factor. If you don't think race matters then you've had your head in the sand for too long.

novelist_wannabe · May 9, 2007

Naw, man, I wad referring to the yellow bracelet. Now that you mention it though, that head is pretty large ...

outofplace · May 9, 2007

Big Chee said:

outofplace said:

Big Chee...bullshit. I love how you ignored every single point in my post except for the race card comment. Nice job of yanking things out of context in an attempt to make your point.

I was responding to a post by keef spoon in which he argued that the only difference between Mark McGwire in 1997 and Barry Bonds now is race. He missed or simply chose to ignore several factors that separate those two situations that have nothing to do with skin color. And just like him, you are locking on skin color rather than seeing the multitude of reasons that Bonds is taking so much shit right now.

I'll re-post what he wrote below and my FULL response rather than just the one part you want to take a shot at so people can see what was really posted.

I'll add one more, too. The commissioner of baseball does not want Barry Bonds to pass Hank Aaron for the home run record for personal reasons -- his own relationship with Aaron. In addition to their friendship, Selig has a tremendous respect for Aaron, not so much with Bonds. It isn't a black versus white thing. It is Selig allowing his personal feelings to creep into a place where they do not belong.

Quote from: keef spoon on Today at 09:42:36 AM
Anyone who says that race has nothing to do with the animosity heaped on Bonds is either a moron or simply a wide-eyed optimist. I think the latter is true in most cases. It seems a lot of white people (and yes, I am white) are uncomfortable whenever African-Americans bring up the fact that there is still discrimination in this country. "Come on, that has NOTHING to do with it," they'll yell. But it does.

It's as if some believe that racism somehow died in, say, 1974, when Hank Aaron broke Babe's record, or 1984, when Jesse Jackson ran for president, or 1997, when Tiger Woods won the Masters. Fact is, it didn't. Is it as overt and disgusting as it was 50 years ago, or even 30 years ago? Absolutely not. But it's out there.

Barry Bonds is a boorish, selfish lout who despises the media and almost without question used steroids and/or HGH. How does that make him different from Mark McGwire, other than the fact that one's black and one's white? And McGwire's run to Maris's record was wildly celebrated.

Race is a factor...but absolutely not THE factor, which is what Bonds would have us all believe.

There are plenty of differences between McGwire then and Bonds now. Once is the level of evidence built up over time of Bonds' use of PED's. Another is the fact that baseball was still recovering from the strike and there was a widespread perception that the game needed something like that to help.

Another factor is that Bonds and McGwire are not alike in personality. Bonds has always behaved like a prick, a loud, arrogant prick. McGwire was quieter, avoiding the spotlight rather than verbally abusing those who turned it on him. He was never nearly as abrasive as Bonds.

McGwire also had competition most of that season from Sammy Sosa. That was part of the excitement. They were not only chasing the record, they were racing each other to get there.

The environment is also different. And it isn't just the attacks on Bonds. It is Canseco's book, the congressional hearings and Palmeiro's positive test after those hearings. I still wish Bonds had been called for those hearings. Just because he was under investigation elsewhere doesn't mean he shouldn't have been called to testify.

So please...stick that race card back in your pocket. It's blinding you to a lot of other factors at play here.
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Sorry, but I find the throwing out of the race card as being intellectually dishonest.

It allows the whole scale criminalization of black men through the media to go on unfettered. And its the reliance of that criminalization that allows those two clowns from the SF Chronicle to make a name for themselves, knowing their accusations would remain unchallenged on a wide scale while leaving sites like these whose users question their accusations and motives in the minority. Look at the reaction to Jason Grimsely, a known steroid abuser and distributor, and his accusations towards Roger Clemens. And this was post-Canseco's book and Palmeiro's testimony. Wasn't the environment the same that Bonds now encounters? The climate was perfect for the Clemens story to catch life, it was ripe for the picking. You had someone with a distinguished pedigree for his comments to be taken seriously, being Roger's former teamate as well as Roger's own personal baggage (ask Mike Piazza), compared to two obscure reporters. Did his comments go on unabated? Of course not because there isn't this overall guilty before proven innocent sentiment of white males to rely on, so his accusations were widely questioned. Big difference.

You maybe very right in the variables that play a role in the overall dislike for Barry. But does race play a role? Of course it does. To the degree that Barry believes it does? I tend to agree. But for you to package race in the form of a dismissive card is dead wrong.
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Ok...again, I'm not saying that race shouldn't be in the discussion or that there is not real bigotry.

I was making a very specific point about somebody comparing McGwire in '97 to Bonds now. He said that race was the only difference between the two and I refuted that by pointing out many other factors that apply to that very specific comparison. In that one very specific comparison, I felt he was trying to hard to make it about race. I was not at all dismissing all racial debates on everything.

This is why I specifically used the term race card. Because when you bring up race when it does not apply, when you say the only difference between McGwire then and Bonds now is race when there are clearly so many other factors, you diminish the very real cases of racial prejudice in this country and that is a problem. I don't use the term "race card" every time somebody claims racism, only in the cases like that one when the claim is so easily refuted.

And as far as Grimsley is concerned, am I clear that you were saying he is "someone with a distinguished pedigree for his comments to be taken seriously?" Are you kidding me? Most people don't even know who the hell he is. The most memorable thing about Grimsley before his home was raided was that he admitted to being the one who climbed through the air ducts to steal back Albert Belle's corked bat from the umpires' dressing room many years back when he was Belle's teammate with the Indians. Yeah, there's your distinguised pedigree. Helping a teammate get away with cheating.

RokSki · May 9, 2007

So Schilling apologized for making false statements on the air yesterday? Good, it's about time someone got called on this erroneous 'indignation' crap regarding Bonds. Whatever the reason, he apologized for his comments on WEEI yesterday regarding Bonds.

How about this, Red Light: Get your facts straight before the next camera comes along. Also, apparently Canseco said Schilling lied to congress today (I believe).

Hey Curt, shut the F*CK up, you stupid clown. Every time you open your mouth, you say something ignorant. You're a sack-of-dung goofball. As an orator and as the conscience of baseball, you make a pretty good pitcher. Stay in your cage and leave the thinking to the professionals.

Shaggy · May 9, 2007

Mariotti and Ryan got on Sportscenter and represented the media very well, saying that Schilling is a big hypocrite for constantly calling out the media's credibility and then calling out Barry Bonds with factually innaccurate statements. Nice going, Curt.

RokSki · May 9, 2007

Shaggy said:

Mariotti and Ryan got on Sportscenter and represented the media very well, saying that Schilling is a big hypocrite for constantly calling out the media's credibility and then calling out Barry Bonds with factually innaccurate statements. Nice going, Curt.
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Good for them. Curt was all over Gary Thorne and his "Fake Blood on the Sock" incident, but then Curt comes with this falsehood? What a moron.

RokSki · May 9, 2007

Here's Red Light Idiot's apology for his comments on Bonds:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sportsscope/2007/05/schillings_mea_.html

Herbert Anchovy · May 9, 2007

Mariotti very clearly didn't know the difference between libel and slander on Around the Horn. Other than that, yes, the ATH gang represented the media well.

outofplace · May 9, 2007

Lee Jackson Beauregard said:

Mariotti very clearly didn't know the difference between libel and slander on Around the Horn. Other than that, yes, the ATH gang represented the media well.
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Well...it's not like he's a journalist or anything like that...

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Bonds, the HR chase & the race issue

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novelist_wannabe Well-Known Member

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