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BOOKS THREAD

Discussion in 'Anything goes' started by Moderator1, Apr 22, 2005.

  1. Boy, it's time to launch a thread on this one. Jemmy's been my favorite for a long time. (The fact that John Adams, that awful old shitehawk, is getting the full-on celeb treatment while Madison languishes makes me nauseous. For me, I think what Madison did -- besides the utter genius it took to overthrow the Articles while pretending not to do it, and simply because you were smarter than anyone else -- was create the framework and then make sure it was flexible enough to adapt to the changes inherent in history. He was very much beloved at his death, at not by his generational peers, then by the subsequent generation. JQ Adams delivered a beautiful three-hour eulogy.
     
  2. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    Adams had the bromide and the borderline manic depression, Franklin the whimsy, Jefferson the grieving optimism, Hamilton the overt self-destructiveness. All sexy stuff for the pop historians, all picked clean. The ground is so trodden Burr is making incursions as a (f)ounder -- of all of them he would have fit best in this current polity. We see some of ourselves in these guys. Madison doesn't seem to radiate that. It's been said in regard to Hamilton that no one loves their bookkeeper. No one really loves their structural microengineer, either. Hamilton's monuments were the twin towers, commerce and industry. Madison's is/was what has been shat upon for the last seven years. That it's lasted this long and so powerfully is his achievement.

    There's a hell of a book to be written about him that can excite both the popular fancy and mechanics of government, but it's going to require heavy lifting and patience.
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I agree that Madison gets short shrift, but there are lots of reasons. His role in shaping the constitution is clear, as well as his work on the Federalist Papers, and that alone cements a strong legacy for the man. But if Jefferson was the signature leader of the Democratic Republicans, Madison gets lost because he was way behind in the charisma department. LB is right. There was nothing sexy about Madison. Jefferson, Hamilton and Adams were all more interesting in some way. Even Burr was way more interesting. Pragmatically, Madison was a so-so politician after the formation of the constitution. He accomplished some amazing things as Jefferson's secretary of state... whatever role he played in the Louisiana Purchase, for example. But his Embargo Act was a miserable failure that hurt us, and the country was more split about his presidency than it had been over Jefferson's. He was a mediocre president by history's standards. We teetered on bankruptcy and he was responsible for the War of 1812, which ended up with the U.S. demoralized and the White House in flames. New England almost seceded. A series of lucky events and military victories (including Andrew Jackson in New Orleans, after the war was already over), helped save some face, but there was a chunk of 2 to 3 years during his presidency when the country was depressed and he couldn't get much else done. With the mess behind him, he was able to do some things domestically for a year or so that were more to his strengths. For example, he rechartered the Bank of the United States, which was necessary to restore the currency after the mess the war had created. But by most measures, his presidency wasn't all that great. FB is right. He was beloved when he died. He had moved onto elder statesman.
     
  4. friend of the friendless

    friend of the friendless Active Member

    Sirs, Madames,

    As research--and I can't stress this strongly enough--I've just finished Carol Shields's Jane Austen in the Penguin Lives series. It was great ... the evolution of a writer and her writing gleaned from a very thin broth of fact that survived her. The Mozart Pen-Lives bio a lot less so. On to Larry McMurtry's Crazy Horse, Proust and James Joyce.

    YHS, etc
     
  5. Burr was interesting for the same reason that John Dillinger was. He's a hard height for anyone to clear. You can hardly pin the Embargo on him (''his" Embargo). Jefferson's got to carry most of the weight for that. Madison's responsibility for the war of 1812 is hardly unambiguous. He tried to run his presidency by the Constitution he'd written -- when the Congress declared war, he went along. (The war was driven, primarily, by the hotheaded leaders of the next generatin -- namely, Henry Clay.) NE didn't secede because Madison's people were smarter than the old Federalist establishment and because Madison declined to send in the NY militia he'd gathered at the border until and unless the Hartford Convention-ers committed an overt act of rebellion. He held the Union together. And he was very active in his post-presidential years, keeping himself in the mix on issues like the tariff and, especially, nullification. He was a mediocre president, I'l give you that, but Adams was more interesting?
    Not really.
     
  6. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    Adams never did anything for me. Cuddly as a cactus. Hamilton was my favorite as a young student, way before he (and I) became cool. Madison was the smartest, most practicable, most utilitarian. And he landed the girl with the big bosoms.
     
  7. Well, actually, he married the girl with the biggest bosoms. (I actually once talked to Ketchum about why this brilliant nebbish landed the hotcha gal of the day. Even he had to admit he couldn't figure it out.) Hamilton "landed" a few.
     
  8. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    [​IMG]

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    Opposites attract.

    Some of the sources have as much to say about her wrists as they do her mammary protruberances. The slender wrist and its curvature was considered a mark of beauty in the times. I used this shit with my girlfriend on one of our first dates. (It worked).

    I had something published on the Reynolds affair a few years ago. That sex scandal had everything. You name it, it had it. Jefferson was so giddy about Hamilton's 95-page confession (maybe the most self-hating document in American history) that he bought a few dozen copies for friends and sent them overseas.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2014
  9. Chi City 81

    Chi City 81 Guest

    I decided to take the Cormac McCarthy plunge, and bought The Road and No Country For Old Men (I haven't seen the movie, either) with a Barnes and Noble gift card.

    Will I enjoy myself?
     
  10. hockeybeat

    hockeybeat Guest

    I'm going to start The Trials of Lenny Bruce very soon.

    Has anyone read it? Any thoughts?
     
  11. Beaker

    Beaker Active Member

    Considering the in vogue status of the "founding fathers" since 2001, it really is shocking that no one-not even the popular historians-has delivered a tome on Madison.

    It needs to be done, but whoever does it needs to take some time with it. Madison deserves more than some popular quick and dirty attempt by someone like Gordon Wood or Joe Ellis.
     
  12. Birdscribe

    Birdscribe Active Member

    I like Ellis' ability to turn a phrase and add a sense of perspective to the Founding Fathers' escapades, but your point is well-taken. This is clearly a mission for Ron Chernow to pick up the white courtesy desktop, please.

    We covered this subject pages ago, I believe.
     
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