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Budget talks: This is getting nasty

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by printdust, Jul 13, 2011.

  1. Ben_Hecht

    Ben_Hecht Active Member

    At what remains the sharpest offshore politically, Dems are now -200 to retain POTUS in '12, while GOP is now +150 . . . reflecting reasonable market adjustment, based on the past month.
     
  2. BrianGriffin

    BrianGriffin Active Member

    To me, if you invest in gold now, you're trusting the greater fool theory. And you'll be right...for a while. It sounds like gold will bubble. Unless we figure out that gold plating will, say, make a generator produce energy at a more efficient rate, its true value isn't any more than it was in 2000. It's an inert, pretty metal.

    To me, things that add value to an economy are things that truly rise in value relative to other goods and services. Gold is rising more out of fear and speculation, in my opinion. It's sort of the opposite of real estate and tech. Both were based on speculation, but replace fear with overexuberance. Or maybe, it's more accurate to say that there is again overexuberance, but one based on fear.

    Does that make sense?
     
  3. Ben_Hecht

    Ben_Hecht Active Member

    Oh, believe that good ol' fear still has a ways to run, here . . .
     
  4. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    Re: Stocks - If your are properly invested for the long term today should be a non event for you. The right portfolio for the average investor is one they should have to look at no more than once a month.
     
  5. MileHigh

    MileHigh Moderator Staff Member

    Lots of bad economic news of late and there's a big one looming Friday -- July unemployment.
     
  6. Armchair_QB

    Armchair_QB Well-Known Member

    I expect the reports on the numbers will include the words "surprising' and "worse than expected"
     
  7. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    It makes sense if that is what you believe. I won't argue with you, because I don't know.

    Markets are a matter of supply and demand. Maybe demand is in an irrational frenzy right now.

    Or maybe the major world's currencies, starting with the U.S. dollar in which gold trades are denominated, have been debased by irresponsible monetary policy, and gold, which trades on its scarity, is acting as a de facto currency showing the true value of a dollar.

    Gold as an asset class, is still way very underrepresented in investment portfolios. Which would suggest it isn't a bubble, in terms of a lot of money flocking in. At the same time, it's largely seen as a retail investment. Institutional investors are taking part, but they are not driving the run in gold anymore. And that might suggest it is near bubble territory.

    Bubbles are only a problem for me, if you put money into an asset and don't pay attention. All I really care about is that the price of something is going up or going down. And in that environment, you can make money.

    But based on the fundamentals, it absolutely makes sense to me that the price of precious metals has gone through the roof. Our Federal Reserve is dangerous and being run people who are debasing our currency for politicized reasons. As long as that happens, inflation in general is a consequence, and a run up in precious metals, which traditionally are the purest hedge against that kind of monetary policy, should be inevitable. The price of gold has appreciated has appreciated for 10 or 11 years in a row. During that time, the U.S. Federal Reserve has been flooding our economy with more and more fiat paper money--before 2008, it gave us "false" economic growth. Since 2008, it has been justified as the way to "stimulate" the economy. It's just no coincidence that when they are debasing our currency, gold has seen steadily rising prices.

    If it gets ahead of itself, it will correct. It did when it had a very quick run up to $1570 in May, and got below $1500. And some people thought that was the pop in the bubble. But after catching its breath, it traded sideways and then started rising again. The fundamental things driving that market are not changing. It's a safe asset class when countries can't handle their debt loads, and everyone naturally knows one way governments deal with debt is by trying to create inflation to decrease the burden of that debt. And inflation and devalued currencies = higher and higher precious metals prices.
     
  8. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    Yep. They're always surprised when they're trying to cheerlead for the economy in order to help the president.

    They never seemed surprised by bad news when they were talking down the economy under our previous President.
     
  9. deskslave

    deskslave Active Member

    Oogity boogity libruhl media!!!!!!one!
     
  10. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    That is what financial planners sell people on. And if that works for you, I won't argue with it for you.

    But I would never stick money somewhere and not pay attention to it. I also learned about 10 to 15 years ago not to touch equities, and haven't since. They don't trade in ways I can predict. You have a company with steady earnings, a low price to earnings ratio, and if the "hot" area is somewhere else, that stock won't get rewarded. There are plenty of unsexy looking companies right now trading really cheaply relative to their earnings and the stock market just ignores them. That makes no sense.

    At the same time, you'll have some hot stock that is really overvalued in comparison, and because retail money is piling into it, the price goes up, despite the fact that on a P/E basis, the thing is overvalued and expensive relative to all these perfectly good companies out there that are cheaper, and should represent better value.

    It's why I haven't touched equities in years and won't. And it's why I decided not to be an investor (what you described) and instead a trader. An investor believes in the value of something and its ability to keep performing and reward investors by its performance, and buys it with the intention of owning it. A trader is just looking for ANYTHING he or she can buy or sell at a price and then sell or buy back for a profit. I find that much easier.

    Right now, the economy is sputtering. Earnings have looked decent enough considering that, but in an an economy that looks like it won't even be growing at 2 percent, how can anyone have any faith in earnings growth moving forward? And earnings are SUPPOSED to drive stock prices (despite what I said above).

    I can think of only two or three stocks I'd even consider investing in. At the top of the list is Apple. It's based on my trading philosophy, which is price momentum related. When prices are rising, they tend to keep going up. When they are dropping, they tend to continue to drop. And the price of Apple just seems to keep going up. Also, from what I know about the company, it's sitting on $76 billion of cash (which is more than the U.S. treasury has right now with the debt ceiling still not raised). And it's P/E ratio is only around 15 to 16 times earnings, which is relatively low for that amount of growth. None of that matters, really, because what is driving Apple's price is that it is the hot stock and it is attracting hot money.

    Which is why all of that said? I won't touch Apple, or any other stock. At $400 a share, or whatever it is, I see more of a bubble there than I do in any commodity. The stock is cheap enough, and the P/E ration is actually pretty reasonable. But at any moment, I know people who are not investing on fundamentals might flee and then I am going to be left holding the bag. It's not enough about fundamentals anymore with equities, which is why I can't be an "investor." More hot money has been flowing into Apple than has been flowing into any commodity I talk about. And even if it is the greatest investment on paper, as I said, stocks just don't trade predictably. I want no part of that.
     
  11. exmediahack

    exmediahack Well-Known Member

    +1

    I'm amused by how "surprised" the financial analysts are after each jobs report.

    Um... people are hoarding money out of uncertainty (I'm guilty of it, too). Spending less. Businesses have lower sales. They hire fewer people.

    I write plenty of business stories in my world. Nearly every one of them tells me, "until we have an idea what our tax rates are going to be, we're not going to hire people in a soft economy". So, they work the 12 hour days themselves, saving the salary, instead of hiring someone to do it for them.
     
  12. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    You should be ready with a follow-up question about what those companies' net head count is compared to five or 10 years ago since they have benefited the lowest tax rates in history in that time. My guess is they will have fewer employees than they did back then since, for all the talk about job creation, lower taxes have served only to line the pockets of the rich and bankrupt the Treasury.
     
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