Budget talks: This is getting nasty

Boom_70 · Aug 4, 2011

LongTimeListener said:

YankeeFan said:

Enron perpetrated fraud.

That has nothing to do with a high regulation or low regulation environment.
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You need to read up on exactly what Enron was doing, particularly in California, and you need to ask yourself why Dick Cheney fought for eight years not to have the notes or attendees of his energy meetings made public. The fraud came about due to the lack of regulation.

Also, the financial crisis happened because banking regulations that had separated banks from investment houses for decades were thrown out. Conduct that once would have been illegal no longer was.
Click to expand...

Again another ill fated bill signed by Bill Clinton.

Azrael · Aug 4, 2011

doctorquant said:

Alma said:

The crux of your point isn't really that the economy will work itself out - but that governmental intervention and meddling leads it astray. And that's based on a moral contention that, somehow, the government inherently makes people corrupt.
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His (and my) contention is not that government makes people corrupt, but rather that government is a powerful vessel for people, who are inherently self-interested, to channel their self-interestedness. This leads to occasions -- which are far too frequent, conservatives believe -- in which "special interests" lever the government for their own benefit and hide behind the rhetoric of "for the good of all."
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As opposed to Wall Street, whose motto is "for my own good"?

Neither private enterprise nor public government are entirely sufficient to human need; nor are either wholly evil or wholly good. As citizens we wrestle with each, and suffer the tensions between the two.

doctorquant · Aug 4, 2011

Azrael said:

doctorquant said:

Alma said:

The crux of your point isn't really that the economy will work itself out - but that governmental intervention and meddling leads it astray. And that's based on a moral contention that, somehow, the government inherently makes people corrupt.
Click to expand...

His (and my) contention is not that government makes people corrupt, but rather that government is a powerful vessel for people, who are inherently self-interested, to channel their self-interestedness. This leads to occasions -- which are far too frequent, conservatives believe -- in which "special interests" lever the government for their own benefit and hide behind the rhetoric of "for the good of all."
Click to expand...

As opposed to Wall Street, whose motto is "for my own good"?

Neither private enterprise nor public government are entirely sufficient to human need; nor are either wholly evil or wholly good. As citizens we wrestle with each, and suffer the tensions between the two.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly agree.

doctorquant · Aug 4, 2011

Boom_70 said:

LongTimeListener said:

YankeeFan said:

Enron perpetrated fraud.

That has nothing to do with a high regulation or low regulation environment.
Click to expand...

You need to read up on exactly what Enron was doing, particularly in California, and you need to ask yourself why Dick Cheney fought for eight years not to have the notes or attendees of his energy meetings made public. The fraud came about due to the lack of regulation.

Also, the financial crisis happened because banking regulations that had separated banks from investment houses for decades were thrown out. Conduct that once would have been illegal no longer was.
Click to expand...

Again another ill fated bill signed by Bill Clinton.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of reputable economists who conclude that the Gramm-Leach-Blilely (GLB) Act actually kept things from being worse than they otherwise might have been.

dixiehack · Aug 4, 2011

So if the inflation bogeyman is around the corner, why are companies hoarding cash? Seems like they would invest in tangible goods before we need a wheelbarrow of dollars to buy bread.

BrianGriffin · Aug 4, 2011

doctorquant said:

Alma said:

The crux of your point isn't really that the economy will work itself out - but that governmental intervention and meddling leads it astray. And that's based on a moral contention that, somehow, the government inherently makes people corrupt.
Click to expand...

His (and my) contention is not that government makes people corrupt, but rather that government is a powerful vessel for people, who are inherently self-interested, to channel their self-interestedness. This leads to occasions -- which are far too frequent, conservatives believe -- in which "special interests" lever the government for their own benefit and hide behind the rhetoric of "for the good of all."
Click to expand...

Special interest groups are hardly the sole property of anti-business interests. There is no more powerful special interest group, for example, than the Chamber of Commerce. The objection isn't generally to special interest groups, but to special interest groups that don't share the same interest.

BrianGriffin · Aug 4, 2011

Boom_70 said:

LongTimeListener said:

YankeeFan said:

Enron perpetrated fraud.

That has nothing to do with a high regulation or low regulation environment.
Click to expand...

You need to read up on exactly what Enron was doing, particularly in California, and you need to ask yourself why Dick Cheney fought for eight years not to have the notes or attendees of his energy meetings made public. The fraud came about due to the lack of regulation.

Also, the financial crisis happened because banking regulations that had separated banks from investment houses for decades were thrown out. Conduct that once would have been illegal no longer was.
Click to expand...

Again another ill fated bill signed by Bill Clinton.
Click to expand...

Let's get all the dirty laundry out. Clinton also signed NAFTA into law.

Clinton, after all, was hardly liberal.

The Big Ragu · Aug 4, 2011

dixiehack said:

So if the inflation bogeyman is around the corner, why are companies hoarding cash? Seems like they would invest in tangible goods before we need a wheelbarrow of dollars to buy bread.
Click to expand...

This is speaking generally, but the main reason is uncertainty, and a belief that we are facing even tougher economic conditions. We are not only seeing outward signs of inflation, the economic news lately has been bleak. At best we are seeing driblets of economic growth. At worst, we are already in another recession. During a recession, things go down in value. So companies are skittish about investing in capital, plants, hiring workers, buying other companies, just to take an immediate loss. So many believe things are getting worse, that they think it makes more sense to sit back and wait to try to get bargains when this really does bottom out. And a lot of people don't think we are anywhere near there.

Secondly, because we are seeing stagflation -- inflation along with low economic growth (thank your government and central bank for creating what is nearly impossible) -- the price of doing business is going up on a lot of business that rely on raw commodities. And if earnings suffer, and the price of oil, say, goes through the roof, they are going to need and want that cash as a buffer.

But the main answer is the adage that in a recession, cash is king.

doctorquant · Aug 4, 2011

If (and it's a big, maybe huge, if) managers of companies are so risk-averse that they are passing up positive-NPV opportunities simply to hold onto cash, then we need a more active takeover market. Nothing attracts the attention of a raider like excess cash.

Boom_70 · Aug 4, 2011

Why is it that economists always have great clarity after the fact?

BrianGriffin · Aug 4, 2011

Frum, the rare conservative who takes the evidence for what it is instead of filtering it through his preconceptions:

http://www.frumforum.com/could-it-be-that-our-enemies-were-right

Azrael · Aug 4, 2011

BrianGriffin said:

Frum, there rare conservative who takes the evidence who what it is instead of filtering it through his preconceptions:
http://www.frumforum.com/could-it-be-that-our-enemies-were-right
Click to expand...

Ideologically impure. Deviationist. Counter-revolutionary. Bachmannoff and the Palinites will sentence him to the Gulag for re-education.

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Budget talks: This is getting nasty

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Budget talks: This is getting nasty

Boom_70 Well-Known Member

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