Budget talks: This is getting nasty

Inky_Wretch · Aug 8, 2011

BrianGriffin said:

printdust said:

YankeeFan said:

Inky_Wretch said:

LeCranke said:

I ask again,

what do the teabaggers and the rest of the Republicans suggest we do to cut unemployment by, I oh dunno, let's say half.

Anything?

Or do they only complain complain complain about the other guys?
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Boehner could introduce a jobs bill, right?
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The Republicans passed a budget. They presented a debt plan. They passed a balanced budget Amendment.

And, Inky, your response flies in the face of all your claims to not be a by the book, liberal, Democrat (gun rights, the loan exception).

What would a "jobs bill" entail exactly?

I swear, it's like a Hollywood script where the movie ends with the earnest politician getting his "jobs bill" passed and everyone lives happily ever after.

Any job "created" by a "jobs bill" will dry up as soon as the funding or the incentives to create it dry up.

Far better for Government to help create a job friendly environment.

Let me buy my fucking strawberry ice cream.
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Yeah, only a "by the book liberal" talks about a jobs bill. Liberals like Reagan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/15/us/reagan-jobs-bill-gains-momentum-with-democrats.html

YankeeFan · Aug 8, 2011

Inky_Wretch said:

Yeah, only a "by the book liberal" talks about a jobs bill. Liberals like Reagan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/15/us/reagan-jobs-bill-gains-momentum-with-democrats.html
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LOL. The more things change...

Congressional Democrats said today that they would accept a $4.3 billion emergency jobs bill proposed by the White House as a starting point in dealing with unemployment. But they said they would try to add about $1 billion to the measure. The Democrats said that the emergency package was only ''phase one'' of their efforts to deal with high unemployment and that they would propose other initiatives in future months. ''We don't think it goes far enough,'' Representative Thomas S. Foley of Washington, the Democratic whip, said of the White House plan. ''The Democrats accept it as the first phase, not as the final and complete resolution of the human needs that exist in society.''
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Even then, the Dems wanted to add more money to the bill. They saw it as "phase 1" and they didn't think it went far enough.

Nearly 30 years later and Republicans still wont agree to a bill that will be "the final and complete resolution of the human needs that exist in society."

If we'd just agree to a bill, things would be perfect. I'm sure Nancy Pelosi still has a copy of the Dems preferred bill in her desk drawer.

Now, to the point, what would be in a "jobs bill" Inky? What was in the '83 bill?

All this proves is that this stupid term is almost 30 years old.

It's like saying a "Clean Air Bill" will eliminate pollution. Who could be against a Clean Air Bill?

Who could be against a jobs bill?

Boom_70 · Aug 8, 2011

The Big Ragu said:

Equities aren't what is telling about it. That rating downgrade should effect yields on U.S. treasuries. And it it isn't having much effect.

I just posted on the gold thread that the amusing thing is how much noise this is, and how the U.S. bond markets are not reacting much to the S&P rating. It's a bunch of noise. As Jack Bogle just said, "A year ago, S&P was the gang that couldn't shoot straight." Yet, now their downgrade is supposed to mean something? And Moody's hasn't said a thing, which is telling. Our bond markets are mostly ignoring S&P. Good.

Other great thing about this. Those social networking stocks that were trading on hype, and not earnings, are getting slaughtered. LinkedIn is down 10 percent. In a way, even though this is an overreaction, in certain areas, it is making people come to their senses.
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Ragu surprised that you would quote Jack Bogle since he is an equities buy and hold type.

linotype · Aug 8, 2011

The Big Ragu said:

This is bewildering. S&P has been doing its conference call this morning. Morons.

They tried to explain why France deserves its AAA (even said it deserves it MORE now than it did a year ago), while the U.S. doesn't. Something about them raising their retirement pension age. No mention of the fact that French banks are the most exposed in the world to the toxic debt of a half a dozen countries on the brink of default

Which is why this is the most insane thing I have ever heard. I am not saying the U.S. is all peachy keen. But we are in GREAT shape compared to the Eurozone, which is being held together by scotch tape. There are some serious defaults on the horizon, and the European Central Bank announced it is going to buy sovereign debt to try to bolster the failing lending markets in places like Spain and Italy, where everyone is expecting eventual defaults right now, so yields were going up.

This is actually beyond insane. Europe is going to collapse -- I can't say when, but they are running around like Keystone Kops right now to try to put off what is looking more and more inevitable. The European Central Bank is embarking on inflationary policy in a move that will amount to spitting into the wind. And at some point -- maybe if Italy defaults -- there will be contagion effect that will look like 2008 all over again. This is global.

But the problem isn't the U.S. We can meet our debt obligations. The Eurozone is falling apart and has almost half a dozen countries that either can't meet their debt obligations or are on the brink of not being able to. We are facing some serious tail risk, so I am not saying the U.S. should be trading independently. But the U.S. is not the problem. And S&P is out of its mind. It is flexing its muscle for being made a punching bag by U.S. politicians in 2008, and it is making itself look even more foolish yet.
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Ragu, I caught the tail end of one of the S&P spokesflaks on CNBC last night defending the downgrade decision. To me, he sounded like an AP poll voter who put Central Florida at No. 1 on his preseason ballot and tried to explain why he zigged when every other voter zagged.

The Big Ragu · Aug 8, 2011

Boom_70 said:

The Big Ragu said:

Equities aren't what is telling about it. That rating downgrade should effect yields on U.S. treasuries. And it it isn't having much effect.

I just posted on the gold thread that the amusing thing is how much noise this is, and how the U.S. bond markets are not reacting much to the S&P rating. It's a bunch of noise. As Jack Bogle just said, "A year ago, S&P was the gang that couldn't shoot straight." Yet, now their downgrade is supposed to mean something? And Moody's hasn't said a thing, which is telling. Our bond markets are mostly ignoring S&P. Good.

Other great thing about this. Those social networking stocks that were trading on hype, and not earnings, are getting slaughtered. LinkedIn is down 10 percent. In a way, even though this is an overreaction, in certain areas, it is making people come to their senses.
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Ragu surprised that you would quote Jack Bogle since he is an equities buy and hold type.
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I have a lot of respect for Jack Bogle. He created an industry in index funds. I don't fault anyone who wants to buy and hold equities. If that works for you, I totally affirm you.

YankeeFan · Aug 8, 2011

More bad news -- though largely expected, predicated even, after Friday's downgrade.

Credit rating agency Standard and Poor's on Monday downgraded the debt of mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

The downgrades to AA+ are part of the continued fallout from the agency's decision to drop U.S. sovereign debt to AA+, an unprecedented move that rattled investors and sparked concern over the long-term impact of the action.

It was widely expected that S&P's downgrade of U.S. debt would roll downhill to other entities that are closely linked to the federal government.

Fannie and Freddie, which were taken over by the government in 2008, fuel home sales by purchasing mortgages from banks.

"The downgrades of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reflect their direct reliance on the U.S. government," S&P said in a statement.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/08/news/economy/sp_rating_ripple_effect/
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NoOneLikesUs · Aug 8, 2011

Dow seems to be bouncing back a bit...in other bad news from a few hours ago:

Rice futures in Tokyo surged in their first appearance on the bourse since 1939, triggering a suspension of trade, on concern radiation from the stricken Fukushima nuclear plant may spread to crops and curb supply.

Trade closed with no deals concluded on the Tokyo Grain Exchange after prices hit 18,500 yen ($238) per 60 kilograms from the opening, compared with the bourse’s reference price of 13,500 yen. The bourse posted today’s settlement at 14,100 yen after the market closed and expanded the daily maximum price limit to 1,000 yen for tomorrow from 600 yen.

The exchange listed rice contracts today for the first time since the start of World War II to boost flagging volumes and profit. The resumption comes as fallout from the Fukushima Dai- Ichi power plant may spread after it was found cattle had been fed cesium-tainted rice straw. Spinach, mushrooms, bamboo shoots, tea, milk, plums and fish have been found to be contaminated with cesium and iodine as far as 360 kilometers (224 miles) from the station operated by Tokyo Electric Power Co.
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BrianGriffin · Aug 8, 2011

Why does CNN struggle? They spend about 45 minutes this morning interviewing...Donald Trump? What the hell?

Football_Bat · Aug 8, 2011

YankeeFan said:

More bad news -- though largely expected, predicated even, after Friday's downgrade.

Credit rating agency Standard and Poor's on Monday downgraded the debt of mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

The downgrades to AA+ are part of the continued fallout from the agency's decision to drop U.S. sovereign debt to AA+, an unprecedented move that rattled investors and sparked concern over the long-term impact of the action.

It was widely expected that S&P's downgrade of U.S. debt would roll downhill to other entities that are closely linked to the federal government.

Fannie and Freddie, which were taken over by the government in 2008, fuel home sales by purchasing mortgages from banks.

"The downgrades of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reflect their direct reliance on the U.S. government," S&P said in a statement.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/08/news/economy/sp_rating_ripple_effect/
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So S&P wait till Monday to drop Fannie and Freddie after laying waste to the cosmos by dropping the entire US of A on Friday night?

Thank Ronnie Raygun that they weren't playing favorites. :

The Big Ragu · Aug 8, 2011

The president about to speak. If I was him, I'd come out and just scoff.

S&P says our debt isn't as safe as it was a week ago or a month ago.

Yet, the day they lower our rating, the rest of the world is gorging itself on our debt. People see it as the safest, most liquid place to put their money. I see money going to three places today: U.S. bonds, the Swiss Franc (except that doesn't strike me as that safe, because there is the risk they are going to intervene to keep it from appreciating), and gold. The 10-year U.S. treasury note yield is down .2 percent to 2.45 percent or so.

So essentially what has happened is that S&P downgraded our debt, and the market's reaction (because of Europe) has been to flock to our debt in a way that suggests it is THE safe haven for money right now.

If I was the president, I'd walk out, point that out, smirk and suggest that S&P rethink its business.

I say all of this as the biggest critic in the world about U.S. fiscal and monetary policy. But we are in RELATIVELY good shape, as much as we have screwed ourselves up. And everyone sees it and is ignoring S&P.

Football_Bat · Aug 8, 2011

The Swiss franc is absolutely kicking ass at the moment, though.

Me and Lil 'Goo as twinkies! Who knew?

Ben_Hecht · Aug 8, 2011

BrianGriffin said:

Why does CNN struggle? They spend about 45 minutes this morning interviewing...Donald Trump? What the hell?
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Greta V. S. wasted light-years with the blowhard last week, tossing softball questions, followed up by the lamest of follow-ups, resulting in a confirmation of Newton Minow's legendary expressions of despair.

The guy has agendas piled onto agendas. Most of his policy views are straight from Fantasyland, with scant relevance to the real world. If he wants to talk about five-boroughs real-estate nuts and bolts, OK, but to waste precious airtime on a guy
with a largely-irrelevant perspective on major policy matters is laughable.

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Budget talks: This is getting nasty

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Budget talks: This is getting nasty

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