Budget talks: This is getting nasty

How much do the rich pay? Our tax system is progressive, but full of plenty of deductions and loopholes (some dubious) that the effective tax rate can be much lower for those who have great lawyers and accountants. A fair system would be fair to everyone, rich and poor.

 

I can't agree with you there. I see where you're coming from, but to me charity is as valid an indicator of generosity as you can get. There is a tremendous difference between: A) giving your wealth to cause X; and B) trying to force someone else to give their wealth to cause X.

 

People have different reasons to donate. Wanting good press or a tax deduction is not true generosity. True generosity comes from within.

From 2 Corinthians 9:7 " Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

 

Should I have used blue font?

 

This is the best chart/article I could find on the topic; it comes from a Paul Krugman blog post so it will automatically be hated, but the numbers (not Krugman's, he is just relaying the data) show that the total tax burden is barely progressive at all, and incredibly non-progressive considering the income gaps we're dealing with. People like Ragu cling to the FIT number, which conveniently leaves out tons of other factors in taxation such as payroll taxes, state taxes, sales taxes, the lower rate of capital gains taxes, and exemptions that are much more available to the rich. The way it all comes out is, there is no material percentage difference between amount earned and amount paid by any particular income group.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/zombie-tax-lies/

So keep citing the federal income tax numbers, but be aware of what an incomplete picture you're painting.

 

Fair enough ... and no sense arguing over what proportion of charitable giving falls into either of these categories, because we're never going to nail that down ... but I agree that not all charitable giving is altruistic in nature.

 

Actually, it is my business that other people make more money than me, when they're using that money, mostly through campaign donations, to prop up candidates who may pass laws that affect myself.

And it is my business when I'm told that I have to take furlough days because the company is having money problems, only to find out that the top brass all received bonuses. And it's a lot of other workers' businesses when they are told that they have to do the same job, only with a pay cut, while the CEO doubles his bonus from the previous year. Class warfare, you say? Damn right, it's class warfare.

You want the other half of the population to pay taxes? Then pay them more money. More money from them will put them in a tax rate in which they'll be able to pay, and lower the income of the wealthy person, which means that person will pay less in taxes.

And yeah, I'd like to see government waste reduced too. I'm tired of reading about $150 hammers and no-bid contracts to Halliburton. And, dare I lose my libruhl card, I'm in favor of making welfare recepients take drug tests. Getting supported by the government is a privilege, not a right.

 

Not an enormous beef with you here. Some people do it out of the goodness of their hearts, some people do it to see and be seen. I know you said it's controlled for religion, but that's even a weird one -- all of the donations to the Mormon Church in 2008 eventually found their way to fighting against gay marriage in California, which I found to be a decidedly un-charitable use of dollars, but that's just me.

 

You're saying all of the tithes to the LDS Church went to fight Prop. 8?

 

How is the system not fair to the poor now? They are not paying income tax.

 

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said all. Exaggeration. But the Mormon Church had a significant -- if shadowy and difficult to trace -- presence in the campaign. They acknowledged $190,000 in in-kind contributions, which to my mind should disqualify them from tax-exempt status because they took an active political position, but there has always been a belief that the amount was much much higher.

 

When you take into account all taxes and not just income, the poor do pay.