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Chase Utley: HOF?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Dick Whitman, May 21, 2018.

Page 5 of 9
  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    For me, Hall of Fame begins with:

    "How did you regard the player during his career. ... relative to his actual peers?"

    "How did others regard him at the time?"

    Get past that as the starting point.

    If you watched a guy play for 18 years and you never thought of him as one of the very best players for at least a decent stretch WHILE he was playing. ... with maybe a decline during which he was still an excellent player. ... you are spinning yourself in circles making a case after the fact for something you weren't actually watching when he played.
     
    The Big Ragu, May 21, 2018
    #49
  2. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    So we are not properly considering “sportsmanship, integrity, and character” in the modern era, due to ... Bill James?
     
    Dick Whitman, May 21, 2018
    #50
  3. cjericho

    cjericho Well-Known Member

    We? I don't have a vote, do you?
     
    cjericho, May 21, 2018
    #51
  4. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    The problem is that you are basing this on your perception, and your perception has been shown to be laughable, when it comes to baseball.
     
    Dick Whitman, May 21, 2018
    #52
    JC likes this.
  5. Slacker

    Slacker Well-Known Member

    Howard had six great years, all in a row. But when his numbers fell ... man, they fell hard.
     
    Slacker, May 21, 2018
    #53
  6. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    You said they should start a “Bill James Metrics Hall of Fame.”

    I said the HOF has always been based on “metrics.”

    You told me that’s not true: sportsmanship, integrity, character.

    Is your argument that voters and the public are now giving sportsmanship, integrity, and character the short shrift in modern times? How does Bill James tie into this?
     
    Dick Whitman, May 21, 2018
    #54
  7. MisterCreosote

    MisterCreosote Well-Known Member

    There were, like, eight near-perennial playoff teams lined up to trade for Hamels and his giant contract in 2015, seven years after his greatest accomplishment (during which, by the way, I’m sure plenty of people considered him one of the best pitchers in baseball).

    He’s probably hurt a tad by the fact that the Phillies brought in three other legit aces while he was in his prime.
     
    MisterCreosote, May 21, 2018
    #55
    Dick Whitman likes this.
  8. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    Don’t pay attention to him. Hamels is elite. It’s nonsense.
     
    Dick Whitman, May 21, 2018
    #56
  9. cjericho

    cjericho Well-Known Member

    The HOF is not just metrics. Bill James pointed out some stats that are valued shouldn't be as valued. There can be a HOF where only metrics are used for voting.
     
    cjericho, May 21, 2018
    #57
  10. cjericho

    cjericho Well-Known Member

    Got hurt and never got back to what he was. He also stayed in Triple-A longer than he should have because they had Thome.
     
    cjericho, May 21, 2018
    #58
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I'm not dissing Cole Hamels. He was great in Phils (second?) world series win. And I'd have taken Cole Hamels on my team in a second (same way I took Andy Pettitte for my actual favorite team when they were winning, and would never argue that he was a Hall of Famer).

    But there was a reason Hamels was never in a serious Cy Young conversation. Or that most people never regarded Cole Hamels the way they did Justin Verlander or Clayton Kershaw. You can rattle off starters who were better regarded at the various stages of his career, going right through the Roy Halladays, CC Sabathias, etc. I'd argue Hamels was a half notch to a notch below the actual best starters throughout the best years of his career.

    Aside from that, I think we're agreeing that he's not going to be a Hall of Famer, although that really isn't a stretch of conversation.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
    The Big Ragu, May 21, 2018
    #59
  12. MisterCreosote

    MisterCreosote Well-Known Member

    I’m only taking exception to your claim that teams would’ve wanted 5-10 other starters before Hamels at any given time. And, your claim that Howard was once considered “elite” and Hamels never was.

    I agree he’s not a HOFer, but both of those claims are wrong.
     
    MisterCreosote, May 21, 2018
    #60
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