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Chevy Volt a Failure - GM to Layoff 1,300

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L), Mar 2, 2012.

  1. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Our approach to energy remains incoherent.

    And 'drill, baby, drill' isn't the answer.

    www.economist.com/node/21563951

    "But no matter how much oil America produces, prices will always be set in global markets. Mr Obama has blamed Iranian sabre-rattling and long-term demand growth in China and India for the ballooning cost of filling up petrol tanks, noting that prices have risen even as America drills more. Yet he had no qualms about tapping America’s emergency stockpile, the strategic petroleum reserve, in an effort to combat high fuel prices after the Libyan civil war, an ineffective attempt to wield a puny weapon for short-term political gain. He could do so again if he wanted to nudge down petrol prices for the election."
     
  2. Bamadog

    Bamadog Well-Known Member

    We have more than enough recoverable oil (including shale deposits) to supply our own needs forever.

    But the government, with endless regulations, stands in the way. The only reason drilling has increased under the thumb of TheOneWhoWon is that most of it occurs on private property, which I'm sure is in his crosshairs with all his talk of the evil "Big Oil."

    Of course, this is the same guy who thinks pissing billions down the rathole of "green" energy, which is nothing more than a cover for rewarding campaign bundlers, is a great and terrific idea. Solyndra, anyone? Fisker, anyone? Silly electric cars for the millionaires and billionaires that Obama wants to punish. Yet they get a subsidy. Yeah, that makes sense.

    We're a hydrocarbon economy because that is the most cost-efficient way of running everything that rides on roads or rails.

    Here's a few ideas, gleaned from the T. Boone Pickens Plan, that would help us become a lot more energy independent (even though we get most of our oil from Canada).
    • Convert long-haul trucking to natural gas. It's cheap and plentiful. The mileage wouldn't be close to what diesel gives us, but the low cost of gas would make it worth it.
    • Run cars on methanol (made from natural gas). It's a lot cheaper than ethanol and doesn't damage engines like corn fuel does and doesn't affect food prices.
    • Build new and safer nuclear plants. Just don't build them on fault lines.
    • Research the green alternatives, but realize that any switchover to them as a primary source for our energy needs is a long ways off. I, like anyone, would love fusion generators and flux capacitors, but they're a pipe dream at this point.
     
  3. 93Devil

    93Devil Well-Known Member

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/03/the-natural-gas-alternative/index.htm

    Trips to the gas station every other day for most people?

    And natural gas is traded just like oil and propane. We are swapping one evil for another potential evil.
     
  4. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    The relevant part of that first sentence is ". . .prices will always be set in global markets."

    Unless T. Boone has a plan for seceding from the rest of the planet, gasoline will continue to cost whatever it costs, regardless of how much drilling we do in-country.
     
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Our use of the strategic petroleum reserve is as insidious as anything that OPEC has ever done. At any time, the U.S. government can come in and manipulate the market, which is patently unfair.

    All of those geopolitical concerns do impact the price of crude oil, which is the underlying component of gasoline, but more than anything, the price of gas is at the whim of another kind of manipulation -- monetary manipulation. We have the Eurozone pooling money and buying toxic debt, through its central bank, which they do by simply printing more money. We have the U.S. Federal Reserve in a perma-zero interest rate policy that is never going to end, and they have been through two rounds of quantitative easing (which makes our dollars worth less) and are beginning QE3. Forget the corrupt nature of it -- QE3 is targeting mortgage-backed securities (buying these assets from banks, thereby giving those banks a gift thanks to their government cronies). What makes it even worse is that all of this has had the effect of devaluing the dollar. And it is just going to continue, because fiscally we have put ourself on the edge of a cliff (as has Europe) and politically we are doing nothing to become fiscally responsible. The geniuses at our Central Bank, as a result, are then called upon to inflate away some of our debt with that policy -- to at least keep us from coming to the edge of a default. To the extent we are seeing any economic growth, it is a mirage. It has all come on the back of dangerous monetary policy, which is creating all new bubbles (look at investment in junk bonds right now, as people reach into risky assets they don't understand to get the yield the central bank won't let the market determine itself). They do decrease the real value of our debt with that policy, but the flip side is that they have created inflation (and they just change the way they measure it, so they can deny it). But you see it clearly in gas prices. The IMF yesterday stated the obvious -- the world's economies have been slow and we are on the precipice of a disaster next year if the U.S. and Europe continue to keep their heads in the sand. With world economies so slow, demand for oil has clearly slowed down. Supply of oil is decreasing, because there are no new reserves (which is why oil will keep becoming more expensive over time), but the decrease in worldwide demand from where it was in 2006 / 2007 is so pronounced that you'd think logically that all things being equal WTI crude should NOT be trading as high as $95 a barrel and constantly flirting with $100 a barrel. But it is. And the reason is that all of these central banks have been shitting all over their currencies, so the cost of everything is going up as the result of inflation. And it is really noticeable in oil / gasoline.

    So you can talk about the strategic reserves and how the president manipulated the market with a dump, and how it wasn't any different than how OPEC manipulates the market. But really, the biggest hindrance to the oil market has been central banking, which is driving up the cost of EVERY raw commodity, and therefore making everyone's money buy less -- less gas, less food, less just about everything.
     
  6. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    A lot of miles to drive to make up the $10,000 to $12,000 cost difference between the Volt and it's sister car The Cruze

    Using your figures on savings of the Volt to the 30 MPG Gas car you are realizing a savings of roughly $12 per week. Over 52 weeks that is a savings of $624. If you had bought The Cruze you would have already saved $10,000 - $12,000 and not have to drive the Volt for 16 years to recognize the same savings.

    You cannot talk of the Volt in terms of cost savings.
     
  7. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member


    Even the Cruze Eco costs a lot more in gasoline expenditures than the Volt. So you have to figure that into the cost differential over the life of the car. And the Volt comes with a considerably more luxurious trim package as standard.
     
  8. Bamadog

    Bamadog Well-Known Member

    The natural gas price right now is ridiculously low and there are wells everywhere. Every day, they're finding new supplies. It's a win-win. And imagine this: if you increase the supply, price falls. Imagine that. Free-market economics. Any excuse they can use to restrict oil exploration, no matter how flimsy, is trotted out to defend the indefensible. Drill now. Drill later. Drill forever. Drill everywhere, be it off the California coast or off Virginia. If oil companies weren't forced by all of the NIMBY (Not In My BackYard) folks to drill out of sight of land, there would've been no Gulf oil spill or at least one that would've been much easier to "plug the damn hole" as our oh-so-brilliant president said.
     
  9. da man

    da man Well-Known Member

    Did you miss where Justin told you exactly how much he saved in gas? $12 in a week over a car that gets 30 mpg? Let's say $13 because it was really $12.76. So at $13 per week, we're looking at $676 per year. That's about 15 years to make up a $10,000 price difference.

    Oh, and according to Motor Trend, MSRP on a 2013 Cruze Eco (28 mpg city, 42 highway) is $19,680. MSRP for a base hatchback Volt is $39,145. That's almost a $20,000 difference.
     
  10. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    I saw it.

    You and Boom keep stopping at the purchase price as the only differentiator. How much is gas going to cost for the Cruze over the same period? Twice as much? Four times as much? 8 times?

    That's savings you're not crediting to the Volt.

    And if the Volt comes standard with $10000 more equipment - making it a 'better' car - you have to factor that into your thinking as well.

    I'm not saying the Volt makes sense. Never have. But if you're going to argue against it, do reasonable math.
     
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I wasn't quite following the post you responded to about "traded" things being evil. I trade dollars for milk. Is milk evil?

    The funny thing about it is that last year into this past spring, I traded (how evil!) natural gas futures contracts from about $3.80 per mmBtu (it topped out close to 4, and I got it as it started its way down), all the way down to a low of about $1.92 per mmBtu (it actually got below that). The price just plummeted, and I was short the whole way. The whole "evil speculator" thing didn't come into play, because people don't realize as I point out all the time on here that anyone who trades (or tries to buy or sell something and then sell or buy it back for a profit) has no vested interest in the prices of things going up. You can make just as much money on something declining in price as you can on something going up in price. I was trading based on price momentum, but the fundamentals behind the market were a supply glut situation, which you are pointing out. I wouldn't expect the price of natural gas to remain low indefinitely as demand catches up, and some supply comes off the market (and in fact, over the last few weeks, the price has jumped dramatically).

    Compressed or liquified natural gas vehicles exist, and they burn cleaner than petroleum and we can derive the fuel here rather than having to rely on foreigners. So it's actually a way some people have been thinking. The main drawbacks are that the usable range before refueling is limited (150 miles or so), and there aren't any CNG or LNG filling stations anywhere. So even if you do invest several thousands of dollars for a home fueling solution, the use of that car is limited. If the cars ever became more popular, or a standard, the prices would come down. Right now, they are really expensive. But it's a chicken and egg thing. To throw out our current infrastructure of gasoline filling stations, and somehow get people to invest in a nationwide network of CNG or LNG filling stations would cost a fortune -- and nobody is going to bear that cost until there is the demand. There isn't going to be that demand, because the cars as they exist are so expensive. And then there is no guarantee that natural gas remains as relatively cheap as it is, especially as demand for it has been picking up worldwide as an alternative fuel -- the U.S. is actually a net exporter.

    I don't see it happening, but it could... somewhere off in the future, though.
     
  12. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    The environmental cost of fracking is going to factor into our debates over natural gas and its applications in the near future, too.
     
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