Chevy Volt a Failure - GM to Layoff 1,300

The Big Ragu · Oct 10, 2012

Not that that has anything to do with anything. Or that anyone ever argued that a current year business deduction (as opposed to a deduction that is spread out over a depreciation schedule) of that sort made any particular sense. Of that in your attempt to make apple sauce out of oranges you did the typical 93Devil post and demonstrated that you don't know the difference between a tax credit (Chevy Volt), which is a dollar-for-dollar 100 percent full subsidy, and a tax deduction (of which there are zillions, many as nonsensical as that one), which reduces taxable income, but doesn't act as a dollar-for-dollar subsidy.

Justin_Rice · Oct 10, 2012

The Big Ragu said:

Not that that has anything to do with anything. Or that anyone ever argued that a current year business deduction (as opposed to a deduction that is spread out over a depreciation schedule) of that sort made any particular sense. Of that in your attempt to make apple sauce out of oranges you did the typical 93Devil post and demonstrated that you don't know the difference between a tax credit (Chevy Volt), which is a dollar-for-dollar 100 percent full subsidy, and a tax deduction (of which there are zillions, many as nonsensical as that one), which reduces taxable income, but doesn't act as a dollar-for-dollar subsidy.
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Agreed. A credit is usually much more advantageous than a deduction.

The proper way for Devil to make the "well they did it too!" point is to point out that credits for plug-ins and hybrids didn't start with the Volt. The powers that be decided in the early 2000s that providing incentives in the form of tax credits for alternative fueled vehicles was a worthy endeavor.

It bothers the shit out of Ragu. This particular credit bothers me much less, but that's a bit self serving of me

Boom_70 · Oct 10, 2012

93Devil said:

Didn't W offer tax credits to businesses that bought SUVs?

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-01-20-suvs_x.htm

Yes, here we go.

Harumph, harumph, herumph.

DETROIT — Buying big, luxurious sport-utility vehicles could cost a lot less under the Bush administration's economic stimulus proposal, even though a Bush appointee blasted SUVs last week as dangerous fuel hogs.
Small businesses and the self-employed could deduct the entire cost, up to $75,000, from business income the year of the purchase. Normally it would be written off over several years, using a depreciation schedule. Deducting the entire cost in one year considerably reduces that year's taxable income, and income taxes. In some cases, it could result in paying no federal income tax.

A similar deduction in the current tax code is limited to $25,000. Tripling that creates a much more alluring incentive at a time when SUVs are under fire for fuel consumption and safety concerns.
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He did, but that really has nothing to do with this discussion. What the article does not say is that when the vehicle is sold there is a recapture and sale price of vehicle is taxed at rate of current income. I was more than happy to do my part in getting the economy going by buying a big 7000 lb SUV.

93Devil · Oct 10, 2012

The Big Ragu said:

Not that that has anything to do with anything. Or that anyone ever argued that a current year business deduction (as opposed to a deduction that is spread out over a depreciation schedule) of that sort made any particular sense. Of that in your attempt to make apple sauce out of oranges you did the typical 93Devil post and demonstrated that you don't know the difference between a tax credit (Chevy Volt), which is a dollar-for-dollar 100 percent full subsidy, and a tax deduction (of which there are zillions, many as nonsensical as that one), which reduces taxable income, but doesn't act as a dollar-for-dollar subsidy.
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If I can deduct $75,000 from my net profit, and not have it taxed, what is that worth to my bottom line? It's more than $7,000, isn't it?

So instead of getting a credit, I am not paying the government the money. Either way, the tax dollars are being wasted either given in the form of a credit or not taxed and collected.

Azrael · Oct 11, 2012

Electric motorcycle.

www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/technology/start-ups/for-some-drivers-electric-motorcycle-could-be-the-best-of-both-worlds.html?hpw

da man · Oct 11, 2012

93Devil said:

The Big Ragu said:

Not that that has anything to do with anything. Or that anyone ever argued that a current year business deduction (as opposed to a deduction that is spread out over a depreciation schedule) of that sort made any particular sense. Of that in your attempt to make apple sauce out of oranges you did the typical 93Devil post and demonstrated that you don't know the difference between a tax credit (Chevy Volt), which is a dollar-for-dollar 100 percent full subsidy, and a tax deduction (of which there are zillions, many as nonsensical as that one), which reduces taxable income, but doesn't act as a dollar-for-dollar subsidy.
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If I can deduct $75,000 from my net profit, and not have it taxed, what is that worth to my bottom line? It's more than $7,000, isn't it?

So instead of getting a credit, I am not paying the government the money. Either way, the tax dollars are being wasted either given in the form of a credit or not taxed and collected.
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If your point is to get someone on the "Volt is a failure" side to say, yes, Bush was an idiot, too, I'll be happy to indulge you:

Yes, Bush was an idiot, too.

That doesn't make the Volt any better, or more worth it to GM or the public (which isn't buying the Volt unless it's given to them).

Bamadog · Oct 11, 2012

The Big Ragu said:

Justin, I just bought a car. Paid cash. I did the negotiation over the phone. I tried to be as up front as possible, because car dealers don't make much on the sale of a car. It's actually piddling. They make a ton on financing. First thing I told every dealer I called because I didn't want to bullshit was, "You are not going to make your money on financing. Save it for the next person through the door. What I am willing to give you is a quick sale that moves a car without having to invest hours, and leaves a tiny bit of meat on the bone."

It took a lot of phone work, but I found the dealer with the exact car ready to cut the BS and take that deal at the price I wanted.

I don't know the deal you got, but if you got 0 percent financing, the tradeoff (if you signed on for something typical) was a dealer incentive or rebate that you could have taken off the price up front. If those didn't exist to take away from you, I know they rarely give that financing (first, they count on most customers not qualifying) to someone unless they get more on the sales price than you could have paid. Second question is, what is the term of that 0 percent? Typically those have short terms, and it is not going to be enough to make up for the lower price (I am guessing, but can't prove) you could have gotten negotiating without the 0 percent loan.

As for the tax credit, American's shouldn't be forcibly subsidizing others' car purchases -- with money added to our national debt, nonethless. It doesn't matter if it is a Chevy Volt or a Toyota Prius or a Matchbox car.

That said, I am glad your wife loves her car. I hope she continues to. I just wish I personally wasn't on the hook for her consumer habits and choices.
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Bought my last car on the internet. I was talking with about six or seven dealers all over the place, ranging from Louisiana to Memphis to Alabama. I told them what I wanted and how much I was willing to pay for it. I almost bought an identical car the old-fashioned way, but it turned out for the best since it wasn't the exact color I wanted.

Via email, I negotiated the price and all I had to do was negotiate what they could give me for my trade. I drove the car, gave them a set of numbers, the manager came in the office, looked at it for about five minutes, gave me a thumbs up and we had a deal in 20 minutes.

Best of all, they had my new car cleaned up and ready to go as soon as I signed all of the paperwork. Easiest car purchase I've ever had. If you need a car and have a few months to shop for it, the internet is the way to go.

YankeeFan · Oct 11, 2012

Chevy Volts for all my diplomatic friends:

on May 7, the State Department authorized the U.S. embassy in Vienna to purchase a $108,000 electric vehicle charging station for the embassy motor pool’s new Chevrolet Volts. The purchase was a part of the State Department’s “Energy Efficiency Sweep of Europe” initiative, which included hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars on green program expenditures at various U.S. Embassies.

In fact, at a May 10 gala held at the U.S. embassy in Vienna, the ambassador showcased his new Volts and other green investments as part of the U.S. government’s commitment to “climate change solutions.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/10/kelly-libya-security-cut-while-vienna-embassy-gain/#.UHbBEtLAzfY.twitter#ixzz290B1zjep
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Azrael · Oct 11, 2012

YankeeFan said:

Chevy Volts for all my diplomatic friends:

on May 7, the State Department authorized the U.S. embassy in Vienna to purchase a $108,000 electric vehicle charging station for the embassy motor pool’s new Chevrolet Volts. The purchase was a part of the State Department’s “Energy Efficiency Sweep of Europe” initiative, which included hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars on green program expenditures at various U.S. Embassies.

In fact, at a May 10 gala held at the U.S. embassy in Vienna, the ambassador showcased his new Volts and other green investments as part of the U.S. government’s commitment to “climate change solutions.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/10/kelly-libya-security-cut-while-vienna-embassy-gain/#.UHbBEtLAzfY.twitter#ixzz290B1zjep
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With gas at $8 a gallon in Austria today, I'm sure the savings will be substantial.

Justin_Rice · Oct 11, 2012

I'm very interested in how a charging station cost $100,000. The 240 charger retails for $500.

da man · Oct 11, 2012

Justin_Rice said:

I'm very interested in how a charging station cost $100,000. The 240 charger retails for $500.
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It's the government. Duh.

Azrael · Oct 11, 2012

da man said:

Justin_Rice said:

I'm very interested in how a charging station cost $100,000. The 240 charger retails for $500.
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It's the government. Duh.
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Or it's the Washington Times. One of the two.

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Chevy Volt a Failure - GM to Layoff 1,300

The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

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Chevy Volt a Failure - GM to Layoff 1,300

The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

Justin_Rice Well-Known Member

Boom_70 Well-Known Member

93Devil Well-Known Member

Azrael Well-Known Member

da man Well-Known Member

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