Fenian's Rainbow

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

It irritated the hell out of me at the time and still bothers me that the Democratic party didn't do anything to stop these guys in the beginning and that so few had the cajones to even vote against the war. Of course, I'll still vote for whomever runs on the ticket in '08 because he or she will be preferable to the GOP candidate.



(It was a good column, although Dowd should tread lightly when it comes to wardrobe critiques... )

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

Ok, that too.

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

Look, that is just wrong. The whole term Fascist is a relatively new construction. There is no clear definition of it.

Why is that?

Because it was created by Socialists, Communists and left-wing academics POST Hitler to get some distance between them and Hitler (think NYT and Jason Blair (pre disclosure he was great, one of them, post a pariah) - not a perfect analogy but you get the point).

But Hitler was indeed one of them, a Socialist, as was much of continental Europe at that time. This was a reaction to the industrial revolution and capitalism that completely transformed the economies.

Think about that whole idea of Fascism and Communism ending up in the same place but starting out in totally different places. Conceptually - how is that even possible?

Like scientifically, how would that work?

It doesn't

I will explain why below

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

Stop posting your silliness now.

Fascism was a term created by Mussolini. There may be different definitions of the term but "socialism" isn't one of them

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished


Here is the true political spectrum

It goes from far left (total state control) to far right (pure freedom & anarchy)

Regimes on the far left are totalitarian there are many flavors of this (Communism, "Fascism", dictatorship, etc.). You cannot have these without state control. The far right is the opposite, at the extreme you have wild west lawlessness or a lack of a society (think Mad Max or Lord of the Flies or something).

Thus, far left is SYNONOMOUS WITH STATE CONTROL. That is the key you cannot have their policies or regimes ("fascist", socialist, communist, dictatorships) WITHOUT STATE CONTROL. Period, end of story.

Again, this is an age old debate/struggle. It is a struggle between those that would have all people be free (traditional Conservatives/Libertarians) and those that are stateist (left wing). That is not disputable.

There are pro's and cons on each side:

Right wing (true conservative/libertarian)

people are more Lassez-faire and that leaves some people behind (wealth "inequality", etc.) and a total lack of state power or regulation can lead to other problems as well (monopolies, environmental damage, unsafe work conditions, fraud, lawlessness, etc.)

The positives are much more individual freedom, equality, & liberty. This system (or more precisely certain blends of it) typically leads to the highest growth and innovation of all systems thereby making the entire society richer/better over time.

Left wing (liberal, socialist, communist)

cons

Strong to total state control, lack of freedom for the individual in crucial areas of life (personal property, procreation, religion, vocations, travel). In practice typically some groups are favored over others explicitly by the state. Economic development is typically hampered to severally limited.

Pros

The goals of most left wing proponents are to help the most people (we are in this together in essence) they desire a system that smooths out the imbalances and shields its population from some of the harsher realities of life & creates a social safety net if you will. They want to create a more "fair" society (equality of result) Unfortunately, in practice these goals often backfires, but that is another discussion.

There you go. I could go on & much more detail, but that is a quick overview. We have to be able to have the same analytical tools & proper framework to have a productive discussion.

JDV

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

What JR said. Your lack of historical knowledge is staggering.

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

JR,

It doesn't matter who developed the term or what you call a regime (I thought names didn't mean anything since Hitler led two SOCIALIST parties).

The point is what is a regime in practice and what are its characteristics

I don't want to get bogged down in minutia

Here is something to examine though that makes my point

___________________________________________________________________

Fascism

by Dr Robert Pearce. University College of St Martin, Lancaster

new perspective. Volume 3. Number 1. September 1997

Summary: fascism is one of the most complicated issues in modern history. There is no simple or generally accepted definition: the term needs to be understood on a variety of levels (as a political ideology, as a style of rule, as a sub-division of totalitarian power politics, and as characteristic policies).

Now let me get to the facts of this case and stop trying to distract me

Thanks,

JDV

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

JDV,
Kevin Trudeau for you on line 2.

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

Yeah 'cause if he gets distracted he might get off topic and start rambling.

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

That was funny.

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

The Bio of Britain's best know fascist, Sir Oswald Mosely, from the Columbia Encyclopedia.

Mosley, Sir Oswald Ernald

(mz´l) (KEY) , 1896–1980, British fascist leader. He entered (1918) Parliament as a Conservative, became (1922) an independent, and then joined (1924) the Labour party. He was junior minister in the Labour government of 1929 but resigned (1930) when the cabinet rejected his economic proposals. He organized (1932) the British Union of Fascists, modeled upon the German and Italian fascist parties. 1
Married first to Lady Cynthia Curzon, daughter of Lord Curzon, after her death he married (1936) his mistress, Diana Mitford Guinness (1910–2003), sister of the writers Jessica and Nancy Mitford. Diana and another sister, Unity Freeman-Mitford, were friends of Hitler. Until after the outbreak of World War II, Mosley conducted a speech-making campaign of vilification and abuse, directed largely against the Jews. In 1940 he and his wife were interned. They were released in 1943. After the war Mosley attempted to revive his movement. As an unsuccessful candidate in the election of 1959 he called for an end to nonwhite immigration. 2
See his autobiography, My Life (1968); biographies by R. Skidelsky (1975) and D. S. Lewis (1987); D. R. Shermer, Black Shirts: Fascism in Britain (1971); biography of Diana Mosley by J. Dailey (2000).

As we all know, 1932 was well after Hitler.

Keep digging blowhard.

 

Re: Hillary -Mission Unaccomplished

The reason most people think that Hitler is "right wing" is for the reasons stated above. History is written by the victors. Hitler was reviled and defeated by a coalition of primarily Socialist to Communist countries (Russia, England, US, France, etc.)

The United States was the only non-Socialist country at the time, but had turned much more liberal/socialist under the leadership of FDR & the new deal.

So, given that these left wing regimes won they did not want to have Hitler be seen as one of them & thus started this whole Fascism = right wing big lie.

Again, there is no good definition of fascism, nobody agrees on it. Focusing on that term in any event means nothing & is a complete red herring.

Let's get back to some earlier protests made by Ragu, et al to try to distinguish Hitler from Stalin and thus "make" Hitler right wing.

Ragu's points basically boiled down to this

Hitler was racist and racist regimes are right wing
Hitler was militaristic & military regimes are right wing
Hitler was nationalistic & nationalistic regimes are right wing

I think that was primarily it

These are both incorrect in important ways.

First they are sheer lunacy since many regimes on the left are militaristic &/or nationalistic, &/or fairly to openly racist (China, North Korea, Russia, Somalia, Cuba, Venezuela, Rowanda, etc.)

Second, it mistakes Hitler's true goals (as stated by himself & his actions) which I will get into later.

The point is ALL major attempts to distinguish Hitler from other left wing totalitarian regimes end up futile. They become meaningless.

Where does that leave us?

Let me go to the original sources and the experts in the field to further explain

Continued below