Ferguson / Staten Island Decisions -- No Indictments

Double Down · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

"Provoking."

"Escalating."

We're still assuming things to be facts that are not actually facts but the testimony of someone with a very specific interest in them being true, I see.

trifectarich · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

heyabbott said:

I can't abide Fox a d their complete abdication of any reporting, but CNN and NBC (MSNBC) are just as bad pandering to the left. Is there any national reporting that is calling balls and strikes?
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I spent a fair amount of time in the car on Tuesday with my satellite radio on. CNN and MSNBC were quite bad and, at times, unlistenable; NPR was decent; FOX does not get broadcast in my car or home.

Boom_70 · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

trifectarich said:

heyabbott said:

I can't abide Fox a d their complete abdication of any reporting, but CNN and NBC (MSNBC) are just as bad pandering to the left. Is there any national reporting that is calling balls and strikes?
Click to expand...

I spent a fair amount of time in the car on Tuesday with my satellite radio on. CNN and MSNBC were quite bad and, at times, unlistenable; NPR was decent; FOX does not get broadcast in my car or home.
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All the cables have failed badly and have only served to add few to the fire. Only possible to watch each in 5 minute blocks without changing the channel. The biases
are all clear depending on the channel.

Wilson should have never done that interview. He comes across as a squirely mall cop that should have never been allowed to carry a gun.

Gave off a weird vibe. Never really looked Stepanopoulis in the eye.
Seemed like he was drugged up on some kind of sedative like Xanax.

cranberry · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

I'll wait for Sarah Koenig's deconstruction before I jump to conclusions about guilt or innocence but Dana Milbank and I are still wondering why the prosecutor opted out of prosecuting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-bob-mccullochs-pathetic-prosecution-of-darren-wilson/2014/11/25/a8459e16-74d5-11e4-a755-e32227229e7b_story.html

What causes the outrage, and the despair, is the joke of a grand-jury proceeding run under the auspices of McCulloch, the St. Louis County prosecutor. In September, I wrote that it appeared he wasn’t even trying to get an indictment; he had a long record of protecting police in such cases, and his decision not to recommend a specific charge to the grand jury essentially guaranteed there would be no indictment.

When McCulloch announced the inevitable result Monday night, he prefaced it by blaming the press and social media for whipping up emotions in the case with inaccurate information. He went on to ridicule witnesses who had given inconsistent testimony. He hid behind the grand jurors, as if he hadn’t orchestrated their decision with the finesse of conductor Christoph Eschenbach: “Anyone suggesting that somehow it’s just not a full and fair process is just unfair to these people” who “gave up their lives” to deliberate.
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YankeeFan · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

cranberry said:

I'll wait for Sarah Koenig's deconstruction before I jump to conclusions about guilt or innocence but Dana Milbank and I are still wondering why the prosecutor opted out of prosecuting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-bob-mccullochs-pathetic-prosecution-of-darren-wilson/2014/11/25/a8459e16-74d5-11e4-a755-e32227229e7b_story.html

What causes the outrage, and the despair, is the joke of a grand-jury proceeding run under the auspices of McCulloch, the St. Louis County prosecutor. In September, I wrote that it appeared he wasn’t even trying to get an indictment; he had a long record of protecting police in such cases, and his decision not to recommend a specific charge to the grand jury essentially guaranteed there would be no indictment.

When McCulloch announced the inevitable result Monday night, he prefaced it by blaming the press and social media for whipping up emotions in the case with inaccurate information. He went on to ridicule witnesses who had given inconsistent testimony. He hid behind the grand jurors, as if he hadn’t orchestrated their decision with the finesse of conductor Christoph Eschenbach: “Anyone suggesting that somehow it’s just not a full and fair process is just unfair to these people” who “gave up their lives” to deliberate.
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I'm not sure I understand this particular source of outrage.

A grand jury is an investigative body. They investigated this shooting.

The DA told us what the grand jury's investigation found.

PW2 · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

YankeeFan said:

cranberry said:

I'll wait for Sarah Koenig's deconstruction before I jump to conclusions about guilt or innocence but Dana Milbank and I are still wondering why the prosecutor opted out of prosecuting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-bob-mccullochs-pathetic-prosecution-of-darren-wilson/2014/11/25/a8459e16-74d5-11e4-a755-e32227229e7b_story.html

What causes the outrage, and the despair, is the joke of a grand-jury proceeding run under the auspices of McCulloch, the St. Louis County prosecutor. In September, I wrote that it appeared he wasnt even trying to get an indictment; he had a long record of protecting police in such cases, and his decision not to recommend a specific charge to the grand jury essentially guaranteed there would be no indictment.

When McCulloch announced the inevitable result Monday night, he prefaced it by blaming the press and social media for whipping up emotions in the case with inaccurate information. He went on to ridicule witnesses who had given inconsistent testimony. He hid behind the grand jurors, as if he hadnt orchestrated their decision with the finesse of conductor Christoph Eschenbach: Anyone suggesting that somehow its just not a full and fair process is just unfair to these people who gave up their lives to deliberate.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand this particular source of outrage.

A grand jury is an investigative body. They investigated this shooting.

The DA told us what the grand jury's investigation found.
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People are well aware that grand juries almost always indict, though. I think the statistic being quoted is 11 out of 162,000 grand jury proceedings in a recent year led to a non-indictment.

What McCulloch did was hold a trial without having to actually hold a trial.

The Big Ragu · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

The old saying is that "You can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich."

If that prosecutor wanted an indictment, he could have gotten one. Which is why pretending it was out of his hands, and passing along the blame or lack of blame to a grand jury, was bullshit. He had the power to get the grand jury to do what he wanted.

Normally, prosecutors persuade grand jurors to indict (with "probably cause" being the standard) by paring down the evidence to the stuff that incriminates the defendant. In this case, they didn't do that. And afterward, in the press conference, the DA cherry-picked the things that he believed were responsible for the grand jury not indicting. He could have easily (as most prosecutors do) pointed out the things he believed should have led to an indictment.

Is to really clear to anyone that a trial jury would have found the cop not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Answer that honestly, and you have your answer about whether the cop should have been indicted -- which is a much lower standard -- in theory and in practice -- than an actual conviction.

My problem with this isn't so much that I am convinced the cop should go to prison -- although his story about a raging person charging a cop pointing a gun doesn't entirely pass my bullshit detector. It's that our criminal justice system isn't fair.

If we are concerned with being just, everyone should be treated equally. And that clearly isn't the case, because 999 out of 1,000 times, a prosecutor uses a grand jury to GET an indictment, not to steer them away from an indictment and then claim it was out of his hands.

Boom_70 · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

cranberry said:

I'll wait for Sarah Koenig's deconstruction before I jump to conclusions about guilt or innocence but Dana Milbank and I are still wondering why the prosecutor opted out of prosecuting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-bob-mccullochs-pathetic-prosecution-of-darren-wilson/2014/11/25/a8459e16-74d5-11e4-a755-e32227229e7b_story.html

What causes the outrage, and the despair, is the joke of a grand-jury proceeding run under the auspices of McCulloch, the St. Louis County prosecutor. In September, I wrote that it appeared he wasn’t even trying to get an indictment; he had a long record of protecting police in such cases, and his decision not to recommend a specific charge to the grand jury essentially guaranteed there would be no indictment.

When McCulloch announced the inevitable result Monday night, he prefaced it by blaming the press and social media for whipping up emotions in the case with inaccurate information. He went on to ridicule witnesses who had given inconsistent testimony. He hid behind the grand jurors, as if he hadn’t orchestrated their decision with the finesse of conductor Christoph Eschenbach: “Anyone suggesting that somehow it’s just not a full and fair process is just unfair to these people” who “gave up their lives” to deliberate.
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But wait, I thought that decision on grand jury process was a joint one between
McCulloch and Eric Holder and DOJ. That is what McCulloch mentioned several
times on Monday night. Didn't Holder get involved to insure a fair proceeding?

If Holder did not think the process was fair why didn't he blow it up before it started?

PW2 · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

The Big Ragu said:

Is to really clear to anyone that a trial jury would have found the cop not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Answer that honestly, and you have your answer about whether the cop should have been indicted -- which is a much lower standard -- in theory and in practice -- than an actual conviction.
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It depends on the charge, but in general, I think he would have been acquitted by a jury.

PW2 · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

Between this and the Tony Stewart case, it seems that grand juries will be often used as political cover in high-profile cases. I wonder if they would use one in Jameis Winston's case if it happened now instead of a year ago.

Boom_70 · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

The ham sandwich should be indicted. It's very unhealthy. Way too much fat
and sodium.

SnarkShark · Nov 26, 2014

Re: Ferguson Decision -- No Indictment

The Big Ragu said:

My problem with this isn't so much that I am convinced the cop should go to prison -- although his story about a raging person charging a cop pointing a gun doesn't entirely pass my bullshit detector. It's that our criminal justice system isn't fair.

If we are concerned with being just, everyone should be treated equally. And that clearly isn't the case, because 999 out of 1,000 times, a prosecutor uses a grand jury to GET an indictment, not to steer them away from an indictment and then claim it was out of his hands.
Click to expand...

THIS

The Big Ragu said:

Is to really clear to anyone that a trial jury would have found the cop not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Answer that honestly, and you have your answer about whether the cop should have been indicted -- which is a much lower standard -- in theory and in practice -- than an actual conviction.
Click to expand...

With the current available evidence and testimony - albeit without adequate cross examination - I could not find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Ferguson / Staten Island Decisions -- No Indictments

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