FROM 2012 INTO 2013 POLITICS THREAD

old_tony · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

Baron Scicluna said:

YankeeFan said:

Baron Scicluna said:

After all, YF said he charged something like $50 or $75 just to walk in the door to fix his coffee machines, plus any other expenses and labor. I'd think that a doctor would be charging even more for his time, plus for the costs of maintaining an office and staff.
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Is the doctor making house calls?

On a good day, I (personally) do four jobs. The most I've ever done in a day is seven jobs.

Do you know how many patients a doctor can see in a day? They've got you in that little room waiting for you. The "nurse" has already taken your vitals. The doctor comes in and spends 10 minutes with you.

If that was how my business worked, I could charge less.
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But would you?

The market shows people are willing to pay a certain amount to fix coffee machines. If someone is willing to pay you a certain price, would you accept less?

The same with a doctor. I doubt that most doctors, unless they were doing charity work, would accept less.
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Except that in the example already shown above, they were willing to take $750 instead of $2,600. So there goes your point.

old_tony · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

YankeeFan said:

Baron Scicluna said:

How do you know for sure if your competitors would lower their price. They might look at your price and decide to match it.
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Baron, I don't think you understand how the world works.
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Nominated for understatement post of the year.

Uncle.Ruckus · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

MisterCreosote said:

Uncle.Ruckus said:

MisterCreosote said:

Uncle.Ruckus said:

MisterCreosote said:

Someone convince me that those referrals would take place and those items would cost that much if our system was universally pay-as-you-go.
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Why wouldn't it? Would doctors suddenly want to make less money?
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I wouldn't pay $240 for a knee brace because that's ridiculous. I wouldn't pay $150 for crutches because that's equally ridiculous. I didn't pay those prices even when my insurance would pay the bulk of it. Because it's ... ridiculous.

I really don't think I'm alone on this one.

And, if people aren't paying what you're charging, even for things they ostensibly NEED, prices go down.
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I wouldn't pay $40,000 for heart surgery, because that's ridiculous.

I wouldn't pay $100,000 for NICU care for my premature child, because that's ridiculous.

Medicine is even a more specialized commodity than oil. You still have other transportation options. What the fuck are you going to do if you have cancer?
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What was under debate was a pay-as-you-go system paired with insurance to cover catastrophic circumstances.
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Who decides what is catastrophic? For some, a broken shoulder would be catastrophic. What of pre-existing conditions?

Instead of the clusterfuck we have now, you're basically asking for the worst of both worlds.

Baron Scicluna · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

old_tony said:

Baron Scicluna said:

GeorgeFHayek said:

Baron Scicluna said:

GeorgeFHayek said:

Baron Scicluna said:

You do realize insurance companies won't pass along the savings to their customers, right?
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You got anything to back that up other than a general disdain of companies that don't strike your fancy?
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You tell me then. Why would they? They're in business to make money. If they can charge a certain price, why would they accept less?

O_T pointed out that insurance should be used for major health events, not minor ones like colds and earaches. If insurance companies don't cover those, then the patient must. There's no guarantee that prices for the colds and earache visits will come down. If too many people can't afford a $100 visit to the doctor for their cold, they won't go. Then the doctors offices, to make up the loss of income, will charge more for the major visits.

And it's not like many people can shop around for different insurance companies. They take what their employer offers them. So companies don't have a very big incentive to offer lower prices because of competition.
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The argument being made was that health insurance should be insurance, not prepaid health care. BY DEFINITION customers would be buying less coverage. It is axiomatic that health insurance expenditures would decrease. Any savings to be passed on would be completely beyond the purview of insurance companies.

Further, experience has shown that when patients must foot the bill for their care, strangely enough [/bluefont] prices come down. Lasik and bariatric surgery immediately come to mind, but there are many, many more examples.

Finally, this statement of yours is just absolutely ridiculous:

If too many people can't afford a $100 visit to the doctor for their cold, they won't go. Then the doctors offices, to make up the loss of income, will charge more for the major visits.
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If doctors had the competitive flexibility you seem to think they have, there would be no way in hell you could see a doctor for a cold. It'd be major visit or nothing.

In all honesty, I think I'm going to need to put you on ignore. Otherwise I am going to need to see my doctor about my blood pressure.
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Lasik eye surgery? Really? An optional surgery so people don't have to wear eyeglasses or contacts? And here I'm the one who usually gets ripped on for ridiculous examples.

Of course patients pay for Lasik surgery out of their own pocket. It's only done for cosmetic reasons. Bariatric surgery is a relatively new phenomenon, which, while there are medical benefits, there is also a high risk of complications. Which is one reason why insurance companies don't want to pay for it. Plus, they would prefer the patients use less invasive ways to lose weight.

Your DEFINITION also doesn't take into account that, even though people may be buying less coverage, that prices may not go down to match the savings. Like I said earlier, there isn't much competition among companies in the health insurance field. Patients have to choose the plans their companies offer, or pay more to go on their own.
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You make a lot of ridiculous assertions, but this might be the most ridiculous of all.

Lasik eye surgery is not in any way, shape or form a "cosmetic" procedure to "look better." It's done for one reason, and one reason only -- to see better. If you don't consider eye care to be part of health care, there's even less reason to give a rip what you think than the almost-zero there was before.
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Um, glasses and contacts can do the same job that Lasik can do.

And yes, eye care is part of health care.

Baron Scicluna · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

old_tony said:

Baron Scicluna said:

YankeeFan said:

Baron Scicluna said:

After all, YF said he charged something like $50 or $75 just to walk in the door to fix his coffee machines, plus any other expenses and labor. I'd think that a doctor would be charging even more for his time, plus for the costs of maintaining an office and staff.
Click to expand...

Is the doctor making house calls?

On a good day, I (personally) do four jobs. The most I've ever done in a day is seven jobs.

Do you know how many patients a doctor can see in a day? They've got you in that little room waiting for you. The "nurse" has already taken your vitals. The doctor comes in and spends 10 minutes with you.

If that was how my business worked, I could charge less.
Click to expand...

But would you?

The market shows people are willing to pay a certain amount to fix coffee machines. If someone is willing to pay you a certain price, would you accept less?

The same with a doctor. I doubt that most doctors, unless they were doing charity work, would accept less.
Click to expand...

Except that in the example already shown above, they were willing to take $750 instead of $2,600. So there goes your point.
Click to expand...

And if the insurance would have paid the $2,600, the poster would have only paid $10. So there goes your point.

old_tony · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

Uncle.Ruckus said:

Or the 3.49 station across the street. Or the 3.49 station next to that.

That's my point.
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Maybe modeling health care after gas stations is the solution.

Make a law -- just as there is on gas stations -- that doctors have to post a huge sign out front with the prices of all their services.

And just as some stations have a "cash" and "credit" price, doctors could have a "cash" or "insurance" price.

old_tony · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

Baron Scicluna said:

old_tony said:

Baron Scicluna said:

YankeeFan said:

Baron Scicluna said:

After all, YF said he charged something like $50 or $75 just to walk in the door to fix his coffee machines, plus any other expenses and labor. I'd think that a doctor would be charging even more for his time, plus for the costs of maintaining an office and staff.
Click to expand...

Is the doctor making house calls?

On a good day, I (personally) do four jobs. The most I've ever done in a day is seven jobs.

Do you know how many patients a doctor can see in a day? They've got you in that little room waiting for you. The "nurse" has already taken your vitals. The doctor comes in and spends 10 minutes with you.

If that was how my business worked, I could charge less.
Click to expand...

But would you?

The market shows people are willing to pay a certain amount to fix coffee machines. If someone is willing to pay you a certain price, would you accept less?

The same with a doctor. I doubt that most doctors, unless they were doing charity work, would accept less.
Click to expand...

Except that in the example already shown above, they were willing to take $750 instead of $2,600. So there goes your point.
Click to expand...

And if the insurance would have paid the $2,600, the poster would have only paid $10. So there goes your point.
Click to expand...

Not hardly. The issue with the healthcare system is what healthcare costs, not who pays what. In one example, the procedure COSTS $750, in the other it COSTS $2,600.

Uncle.Ruckus · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

And in your scenario, you would be counting on the doctors suddenly settling for less than one-third of what they used to charge. Good luck with that.

old_tony · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

Uncle.Ruckus said:

And in your scenario, you would be counting on the doctors suddenly settling for less than one-third of what they used to charge. Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

They already did, so I guess I don't need any luck at all.

Uncle.Ruckus · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

old_tony said:

Uncle.Ruckus said:

And in your scenario, you would be counting on the doctors suddenly settling for less than one-third of what they used to charge. Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

They already did, so I guess I don't need any luck at all.
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Nope. Across-the-board altruism is much more likely.

BenPoquette · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

MisterCreosote said:

Uncle.Ruckus said:

MisterCreosote said:

Someone convince me that those referrals would take place and those items would cost that much if our system was universally pay-as-you-go.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't it? Would doctors suddenly want to make less money?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't pay $240 for a knee brace because that's ridiculous. I wouldn't pay $150 for crutches because that's equally ridiculous. I didn't pay those prices even when my insurance would pay the bulk of it. Because it's ... ridiculous.

I really don't think I'm alone on this one.

And, if people aren't paying what you're charging, even for things they ostensibly NEED, prices go down.
Click to expand...

You can get a pair of crutches at Goodwill for $2.00. They have them all the time. They have reinforced knee braces at Wal Mart for $49.99. The only reason these items cost this much from the doctor is because they bill insurance and do not have to deal with the free market. I can't believe that some posters on here can't understand this.

Uncle.Ruckus · Feb 7, 2013

Re: THE 2012 POLITICS THREAD

"Free market."

Take a drink.

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