Guns, the NRA, the constitution and senseless shootings

Yawn · Apr 17, 2007

Pastor said:

Sorry, but in order to be successful in defending yourself, you need to have the will to kill the attacker. Not everybody can do so. And if you can't do it, your own gun will be your own demise.

As to having a militia to overthrow the government... well, that is just BS. Sorry, but if the government became a dictatorship tomorrow, who the fuck is going to overthrow it? Seriously? Is Tommy Pistol going to use is 9mm to take down "the man?" How Johnny Backyard-Tank?

Sorry, but with today's weaponry and technology a few well armed individuals can't do dick.

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That's a mighty interesting note, Pastor. So are the few well armed individuals in Iraq not doing dick or is the advances of the terrorists just a figment of the media's imagination? If the former, then you're damn wrong - a revolution starts with passion and the willing to die for it more than artillery. If the latter, then victory in Iraq is all but ours.

Note that the first revolutionaries in America were greatly-outnumbered and out-equipped to start.

Yawn · Apr 17, 2007

buckweaver said:

Yawn said:

Psychopath can't find a gun the normal way, but will through the black market- his obsession to make a name for himself won't pass.

Think he gets his mission done? Or gives up, blames his failure on the gun control laws and kisses his social worker?
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Here's where that breaks down: A sociopath without a conscience is going to get a gun, no matter what the laws are. Gun control does not affect hardcore criminals, one way or the other.

What gun control does ... more specifically, what getting rid of the uber-violent automatic and assault weapons that have no place in any legal or accepted behavior like hunting does ... is help limit the thousands of accidental shooting deaths every year, and even many intentional ones. It can help limit many "crimes of passion," where if a gun is readily available to a person not in control of his emotions, that gun can be used for a violent criminal act. It helps limit violent acts of road rage (or other types of rage.) And yes, sometimes, it might help deter spontaneous crime. If your down-on-his-luck neighbor, who just lost his job and his wife, has to go through a lot more hoops to possess a gun than a background check from Wal-Mart and a three-day wait, maybe he'll calm down enough not to hold up that convenience store on the corner ... or your house when you're sleeping ... or a school at a 9 in the morning.

***

Protection is all fine and well, whether it's against criminals or a tyrannical government.

The Second Amendment gives "a well-regulated militia" the right to bear arms against domestic despots. In an era when tyranny reigned, and the people had just overthrown an inept monarchy ruling them from across an ocean, that right needed to be clearly spelled out.

And when the time comes to form "a well-regulated militia" against another tyrannical government, then we will have that right in our Constitution.

It doesn't give every Tom, Dick and Harry the right to protect the womenfolk and chit'len with a rifle in the closet and a 9mm in the glove compartment.

But we obsess over protection in this country, we obsess over security. Hell, we even gave up a shitload of civil liberties to gain more temporary security when the Patriot Act was passed ... and then passed again.

There is no such thing as 100% protection. It's impossible to foster, it's especially impossible to promise, and it's simply foolish to believe that your government or your gun-owning head of household can provide it.
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I think Mary Winkler shot her husband with a deer rifle. I might be wrong. Crimes of passion can involve a 12-gauge. Again, tougher penalties for misuse is the answer. We have forgotten how to execute consequence. We ignore the issue of responsibility.

Fenian_Bastard · Apr 17, 2007

Not to bring up He Who Must Not Be Named, but Michael Moore made the point in Bowling From Columbine that there are no easy answers to why these things happen here -- including stringent gun laws.
This is not all about guns, but it's partly about guns.

Yawn · Apr 17, 2007

Guns.

Public responsibility

Individual responsibility

Accountability at all levels.

Punishment to fit the crime.

No second chances. Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

A social work system that does not aim to "subsist" but to "improve" public welfare.

Psychiatry that demands personal accountability.

Lawyers with moral compasses.

Yawn · Apr 17, 2007

buckweaver said:

When's the last time someone committed a violent act with a computer?

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That brought a good laugh. Where the hell are these terrorists from? IBM?

Fenian_Bastard · Apr 17, 2007

A list that, I suspect, in its particulars would be considerably unpleasant.

Yawn · Apr 17, 2007

Fenian_Bastard said:

A list that, I suspect, in its particulars would be considerably unpleasant.
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What happened yesterday WAS UNPLEASANT. Spanking your kid is UNPLEASANT, but sometimes NECESSARY.

Which illustrates to a T the problem. Thanks, Fen. Although I'm sure it was unintentional.

MertWindu · Apr 17, 2007

Wow, "unpleasant," huh? That's the best you can muster for what happened yesterday, Bigot? Jesus, don't strain yourself.

Fenian_Bastard · Apr 17, 2007

Leave him be, zeke.
It would be the responsible thing to do.

andyouare? · Apr 17, 2007

Interesting story on the world reaction to the shooting, which has a summary of different gun laws around the world:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3048249

In Sweden, civilians can only get firearm permits if they have a hunting license or are members of a shooting club approved by authorities and have no history of violent crime.
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In Italy, there are three types of licenses for gun ownership: for personal safety, target practice and skeet shooting, and hunting. Authorization is granted by the police. To obtain a gun for personal safety, the owner must be an adult and have a "valid" reason.
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Gun crime is rare in Britain, and handguns are completely illegal. The ban is so strictly enforced that Britain's Olympic pistol shooting team is barred from practicing in its own country.

Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms was the lowest total since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded at least 579 homicides last year.
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NoOneLikesUs · Apr 17, 2007

Yawn said:

buckweaver said:

When's the last time someone committed a violent act with a computer?

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That brought a good laugh. Where the hell are these terrorists from? IBM?
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Initech.

zeke12 · Apr 17, 2007

Not it.

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