Have you given up?

Tom Petty · Feb 22, 2008

Barsuk said:

Tom Petty said:

dam - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal fucking as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.
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God damn if I don't want to work for you more than anything right now, tomas.
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Simon_Cowbell · Feb 22, 2008

Joe Williams said:

Jims242 said:

Let me apologize for the venom in my rant. Seriously, I do mean it.

Just the gloom and doom (and no, I'm not blind to way print is going) astounds me at times. It just bothers me to watch good talent leaving what they've always dreamed of doing.
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At that point -- I feel bad for anyone who truly believes they "were born to do this and only this." That really is selling yourself short.
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Judge Smails would disagree.

Tom Petty · Feb 22, 2008

Moderator1 said:

Tom Petty said:

Damaramu said:

About the same. This was all in the last week or two that this happened.

I think part of my problem is that I already had my confidence shot in college. My student paper was full of assholes. Everyone put everyone else's writing down. They'd do it to your face or behind your back. Me and like two other people didn't do it. The night deskers were the worst. They'd tell us that editing our stories was like editing a 3-year olds writing.

Obviously I'm a better writer than that or I wouldn't have a job. Unfortunately, it does play with your head. So when you're in a situation where failure is very likely and you have shaky confidence in your abilities.....well that's just not good for growth and development as a writer!

Not to mention my publisher is an a-hole that doesn't help.
The other day "So I see XX wasn't around to edit your stories the other day was he?"
"No."
"Haha. It shows."

Then again he's a nitwit that has no journalistic background. If I gave him one of those things from an entry level journalism class "There's 50 mistakes in this story. Find them." He'd probably find 15. He just likes to be an a-hole. He does it to other people. He's constantly telling our pressman (who's done this since 1976) that he doesn't know what he's doing.

Just not good for growth. Surely every paper isn't like this is it?
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dam - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal fucking as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.
Click to expand...

Serious question, not trying to be an ass: How big a paper does it have to be? I just left a 200K (well, not that long ago - let's call it a 180K). Decent sized joint. I talked to the publisher more than I did the ME. Not complaining. I like the publisher. Just wondering at what level the pub. is beyond reach or makes him/herself that way.
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again, moddy, that's from my experience. i'm sure it has plenty to do with personalities as well.

but, from my experience, pubs at larger circs spend more time working the business end of the game and/or more time on the golf course.

Some Guy · Feb 22, 2008

Tom Petty said:

Moderator1 said:

Tom Petty said:

Damaramu said:

About the same. This was all in the last week or two that this happened.

I think part of my problem is that I already had my confidence shot in college. My student paper was full of assholes. Everyone put everyone else's writing down. They'd do it to your face or behind your back. Me and like two other people didn't do it. The night deskers were the worst. They'd tell us that editing our stories was like editing a 3-year olds writing.

Obviously I'm a better writer than that or I wouldn't have a job. Unfortunately, it does play with your head. So when you're in a situation where failure is very likely and you have shaky confidence in your abilities.....well that's just not good for growth and development as a writer!

Not to mention my publisher is an a-hole that doesn't help.
The other day "So I see XX wasn't around to edit your stories the other day was he?"
"No."
"Haha. It shows."

Then again he's a nitwit that has no journalistic background. If I gave him one of those things from an entry level journalism class "There's 50 mistakes in this story. Find them." He'd probably find 15. He just likes to be an a-hole. He does it to other people. He's constantly telling our pressman (who's done this since 1976) that he doesn't know what he's doing.

Just not good for growth. Surely every paper isn't like this is it?
Click to expand...

dam - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal fucking as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.
Click to expand...

Serious question, not trying to be an ass: How big a paper does it have to be? I just left a 200K (well, not that long ago - let's call it a 180K). Decent sized joint. I talked to the publisher more than I did the ME. Not complaining. I like the publisher. Just wondering at what level the pub. is beyond reach or makes him/herself that way.
Click to expand...

again, moddy, that's from my experience. i'm sure it has plenty to do with personalities as well.

but, from my experience, pubs at larger circs spend more time working the business end of the game and/or more time on the golf course.
Click to expand...

Frankly, I'm not even sure of our publisher's first name. I think we got a new one recently. I don't go up in that ivory tower.

Moderator1 · Feb 22, 2008

A lot of it here, I think, is that the publisher came up through the news room. Copy editor, business editor *** he's more in tune there. Previous publisher I didn't see quite so much but I also was a roadie during those years.

Not sure I'd want to be a publisher these days, though I hear the pay is nice.

Damaramu · Feb 22, 2008

Our publisher was a press manager before he was our publisher. Yes that's right, press manager. He's never set foot in a J-school in his life. I'm not even sure if he even has a college degree.
Yet he acts like he knows everything there is to know about writing. That's why I made that comment earlier. If I gave him one of those assignments from an entry level journalism course that said "Find the 50 mistakes in this story" he would only find 15-20.
Yet somehow he's always jumping on everyone's writing. It's not like we haven't seen his writing. He's written a few columns and well, it just confirms what I already know.

expendable · Feb 22, 2008

Some Guy said:

Frankly, I'm not even sure of our publisher's first name. I think we got a new one recently. I don't go up in that ivory tower.
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I just stamped my feet and if my publisher was in the office, he was bound to hear it. That has its good points and its bad ones.

spnited · Feb 22, 2008

The more I read the multiple gloom and doom threads on this board, the more I love my job.

jboy · Feb 22, 2008

imjustagirl said:

silentbob said:

Deadends come at different points.

I spent 10 years getting to a destination paper. Now that I'm here -- one of the 10 largest in the country -- I make a little over $50,000 covering the biggest teams in town.

In a big city with 2 kids that doesnt go very far, which means here I am, at the top of my profession, living paycheck to paycheck. I love my job. One of the highlights of my day is reading the morning paper. But at some point you have to ask yourself: What is best for my family? With the industry tanking, I really don't see my salary jumping another 10 grand over the next seven, eight or nine years. And last I checked, the world's not getting any cheaper.

Doesnt leave one with a lot of options.
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But what other field can you get into where you'll start at over $50K?
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If you have a good amount of experience, you won't be starting over. And 50K is only about 15 percent more than my starting salary (not bragging, I swear) at my first straight-from-newspaper-to-PR job.

It's almost impossible -- unless you become a teacher or a crack whore -- to make less money when you leave the newspaper biz. (And it wouldn't have taken many years as a teacher to surpass my previous salary).

imjustagirl · Feb 22, 2008

jboy said:

imjustagirl said:

silentbob said:

Deadends come at different points.

I spent 10 years getting to a destination paper. Now that I'm here -- one of the 10 largest in the country -- I make a little over $50,000 covering the biggest teams in town.

In a big city with 2 kids that doesnt go very far, which means here I am, at the top of my profession, living paycheck to paycheck. I love my job. One of the highlights of my day is reading the morning paper. But at some point you have to ask yourself: What is best for my family? With the industry tanking, I really don't see my salary jumping another 10 grand over the next seven, eight or nine years. And last I checked, the world's not getting any cheaper.

Doesnt leave one with a lot of options.
Click to expand...

But what other field can you get into where you'll start at over $50K?
Click to expand...

If you have a good amount of experience, you won't be starting over. And 50K is only about 15 percent more than my starting salary (not bragging, I swear) at my first straight-from-newspaper-to-PR job.

It's almost impossible -- unless you become a teacher or a crack whore -- to make less money when you leave the newspaper biz. (And it wouldn't have taken many years as a teacher to surpass my previous salary).
Click to expand...

I have spent 18 months looking for another job. I can't find one that will even get within $10K of what I'm making now.

expendable · Feb 22, 2008

imjustagirl said:

jboy said:

imjustagirl said:

silentbob said:

Deadends come at different points.

I spent 10 years getting to a destination paper. Now that I'm here -- one of the 10 largest in the country -- I make a little over $50,000 covering the biggest teams in town.

In a big city with 2 kids that doesnt go very far, which means here I am, at the top of my profession, living paycheck to paycheck. I love my job. One of the highlights of my day is reading the morning paper. But at some point you have to ask yourself: What is best for my family? With the industry tanking, I really don't see my salary jumping another 10 grand over the next seven, eight or nine years. And last I checked, the world's not getting any cheaper.

Doesnt leave one with a lot of options.
Click to expand...

But what other field can you get into where you'll start at over $50K?
Click to expand...

If you have a good amount of experience, you won't be starting over. And 50K is only about 15 percent more than my starting salary (not bragging, I swear) at my first straight-from-newspaper-to-PR job.

It's almost impossible -- unless you become a teacher or a crack whore -- to make less money when you leave the newspaper biz. (And it wouldn't have taken many years as a teacher to surpass my previous salary).
Click to expand...

I have spent 18 months looking for another job. I can't find one that will even get within $10K of what I'm making now.
Click to expand...

That's a pisser, but when you read it in Debbie Downer's voice (followed by waaah waaaaah) it's actually quite amusing.

Still a pisser, though.

imjustagirl · Feb 22, 2008

Dammit!!!

imjustagirl said:

jboy said:

imjustagirl said:

silentbob said:

Deadends come at different points.

I spent 10 years getting to a destination paper. Now that I'm here -- one of the 10 largest in the country -- I make a little over $50,000 covering the biggest teams in town.

In a big city with 2 kids that doesnt go very far, which means here I am, at the top of my profession, living paycheck to paycheck. I love my job. One of the highlights of my day is reading the morning paper. But at some point you have to ask yourself: What is best for my family? With the industry tanking, I really don't see my salary jumping another 10 grand over the next seven, eight or nine years. And last I checked, the world's not getting any cheaper.

Doesnt leave one with a lot of options.
Click to expand...

But what other field can you get into where you'll start at over $50K?
Click to expand...

If you have a good amount of experience, you won't be starting over. And 50K is only about 15 percent more than my starting salary (not bragging, I swear) at my first straight-from-newspaper-to-PR job.

It's almost impossible -- unless you become a teacher or a crack whore -- to make less money when you leave the newspaper biz. (And it wouldn't have taken many years as a teacher to surpass my previous salary).
Click to expand...

I have spent 18 months looking for another job. I can't find one that will even get within $10K of what I'm making now.

WAAH WAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Click to expand...

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