here's what's in store for ichiro...

VORP has them pretty close, edge to Jeter. He posted season of 75, 100, 70 and 66 from 1998-2001.

That's much better than any four-year stretch Ichiro has.

 

Well, that settles it then.

 

Too advanced for you?

 

OPS, K/BB ratio and such stats are a fine new way to look at the game.

VORP and its brethren are complete bullshit, manipulated according to the "stat" creator's view of the one and only way to play baseball.

 

Better than 'hof calibre seasons'.

The methodology is transparent.

And you'll note, I didn't say that ended the debate.

Jeter career: OPS: .832, OPS +: 118
Ichiro career: OPS:.797, OPS +: 115

They're both HOFers. Jeter's a slightly more productive hitter at a premium defensive position. If you had to choose between the two during their primes, or over their careers, you'd be a fool not to pick Jeter.

Now, that is the end of the discussion.

 

OK Mark. You're completely correct. I am sure Ichiro's numbers would be no different if he had been hitting atop the most potent lineup in baseball for the past 10 years.

 

I used to feel this way too, but I'm coming around on WAR and VORP. [More so on VORP.] I don't know that it's that hard to say "X is what we can expect a minimum cost resplacement player to produce based on the league average" and "Y is the statistical value of the player in question" and then calculate the difference between the two.

I think where non-seamheads (and I think I'm still one) err is is their belief that every sabernerd looks at something like VORP as an absolute. It's just another way to quantify something speculative. Really, it's not that much different than saying "How much better is he than an average player at his position?"

 

How would that affect his OPS?

 

You'll pardon me if I note that that argument smells like, complete bullshit manipulated according to the creator's view of the one and only way to play baseball.

I can't account for shit that didn't happen. Of available data, on-base percentage and slugging percentage are pretty damn independent.

I don't consider myself a sabermetrician, either. I just looked up the VORP because, well, I thought Mizzou was dead wrong. Turns out, the numbers backed that up. Threw them out there. You don't have to agree.

 

I know statheads don't like to look at factors like this, but he would have had a steady diet of much better pitches to hit because of the fear of putting him on base ahead of the heart of the order. Rich Aurilia once hit 37 home runs batting ahead of the Bonds/Kent duo.

 

I wish all our resident sock puppets were this hot, btw.

 

Have you watched Ichiro play? He would not see b etter pitches as he does not take pitches and is the best bad ball hitter I've ever seen. You think he would have all of sudden became patient. you also forget he played on some damn good teams at the beginning of this decade.