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How do we feel about the Chron guys now?

Discussion in 'Journalism topics only' started by SF_Express, Feb 19, 2007.

  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    cream, I thought about that when I was typing it, and didn't bother to check the chronology. Sorry I got it wrong. It doesn't change my point, which is why it was a detail I didn't think I needed to be devilish about. Bronstein was asserting the principle, because it already was an issue. If they were raiding people's homes to try to ferret out a leak, it was a real possibility that they were going to twist the arms of his reporters (if the Feds and the judge weren't already rumbling to the paper privately) with jail as the scare tactic. Obviously, the prospect of that--and the prospect was certainly looming at that time (immediately after they published their first stories in 2004, there was grumbling about the leaks and the reporter's names were on the Fed's radar screen)--wasn't just something he was imagining. They did end up leaning on the reporters and threatening them with jail. All Bronstein did in the story you quoted was stand behind the principle he believed in, and stand behind his two reporters, who were sitting at the center of a potential firestorm. You do see that, right?

    EDIT: And this is a message board on which I am typing out fast responses and trying to engage people who are making respectful arguments. It isn't my life. I really don't feel I need to fact check every small detail of a post (I'll accept it when you point out things I have gotten wrong) when I am sure of the larger point I am making. You seem to believe that if someone gets a small periphery detail wrong, it invalidates the bigger point. I hope I am reading you wrong.
     
  2. creamora

    creamora Member

    The following is an excerpt from the interview with
    Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada published in
    the March 15-21, 2006 issue of USA TODAY SPORTS WEEKLY
    on page 26.

    SW: Do you worry about getting subpoenaed, or spending time in prison for receiving leaked grand jury testimony?

    LW: We have big concerns about that, and there are ongoing concerns. The most intense time was when the paper got demand letters from the U.S. attorney two or three times wanting sources, names and documents.

    We know that FBI agents raided Victor Conte's house to attempt to learn sources from the story. We know there was interest in the topic, and that sort of played out in Washington (New York Times reporter) Judith Miller to jail (for contempt of court in the CIA agent leak
    case). There is a continuing concern with that.

    But our sources know we'll never give them up.... Our sources were the real whistler-blowers. These people wanted the truth told. The concern the whole time was the way the government handled the BALCO case. Names and athletes were held back. It all had to be ventilated if sports were to be reformed as a result of the case.... They trusted us to bring the truth and not have their lives all messed up.


    In essence Williams is painting the picture that Troy Ellerman is a good guy. Does it not seem that Williams in presenting a case that there is a common agenda between the Chronicle and Ellerman? How about William's statement, "These people wanted the truth told." Do Ellerman's illegal activities really demonstrate that he wanted the truth told? Outright lies were being told by Ellerman for two years and the Chronicle had full knowledge of this fact. How about, "They trusted us to bring the truth and not have their lives all messed up." Did the chronicle really bring the truth? Seems to me that there was a collusion between Ellerman and Fainaru-Wada and bigtime. "It all had to be ventelated...." says Williams. Does this not sound like an agenda by the Chronicle and Ellerman in retrospect? It's time to out the Chronicle and both of these reporters for such very bad judgement. The Chronicle's motives must be seriously questioned. Wonder if these two reporters will win some more journalism awards instead?
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Cream, I don't read it that way at all. They asserted the principle. And they said they will never reveal their sources (note the plural of the word, by the way. We don't know everyone these guys talked to.), because they believe in that principle.

    You are reading a lot into that interview. I'll let others decide for themselves.

    EVERY source has an agenda. In this case, the source's agenda brought him to do something unethical. He was actually brought to justice, which is one reason why your outrage seems so misguided to me. But also, you have taken giant leaps to make those reporters part of a scheme in which they were complicit in Ellerman's unethical behavior. If you are correct, I wish the authorities luck in proving it, and I hope justice is served.

    However, there isn't proof of that. And it still doesn't change the principle the reporters asserted in the interview you posted. This isn't about Ellerman. If Ellerman is the issue for you, then you're right. I suppose we can also stop reporting any news, because unless you know every source is absolutely unimpeachable (regardless of whether the source is providing truthful information, which Ellerman was--and jeez, isn't that what this SHOULD be about?), someone like you is going to be waiting in the wings to try to discredit a truthful story (maybe this isn't your intent, but others on this thread have) by attacking the motives of the person providing the info.

    They are two separate issues, though. I wish you could make the distinction, but I guess you don't. Anyhow, I did something I abhor. I said I was done earlier, and I've kept posting. It's been fun.
     
  4. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    Is there any possibility of civil suites vs Chronicle from those who may have been damaged by publication of grand jury testimony?
     
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I am not an attorney, but my strong guess is no. There is nothing illegal about the reporters having or publishing that testimony. The illegality was for certain people to share it. It's a big distinction. In this case, the leak was one step removed from the GJ process, which is the irony. No one from the GJ leaked the testimony. Ellerman wasn't allowed into the GJ proceedings.

    The reason he had the transcripts was that his clients were being prosecuted and the government had to hand over the testimony as part of the pretrial discovery. With that came a court order barring him from sharing with anyone not on the defense team. But I would guess the culpability for him defying that court order begins and ends with him. The testimony itself isn't sacred in the eyes of the law (nor should it be, in my opinion. We don't live in an Eastern Bloc country).
     
  6. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    OK - so do they have a case against Ellerman?
     
  7. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    This I don't know. But my instinct says they shouldn't be able to. When they were called to testify, they were under oath to tell the truth. That has nothing to do with any of the reasons given for keeping GJs secret. The witnesses' truthfulness isn't dependent on their testimony being done in secret. As far as I know, you can plead the fifth under grand jury questioning. So I am not sure how anyone who testified could make a serious argument that they've been damaged by their truthful testimony.
     
  8. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    Luggie,

    Ellerman had me fooled, too. It didn't make sense that those leaks could have come from anyone but the prosecution. Good thing Larry McCormack, for whatever reason, became the only genuine whistle blower in the case.

    Actually, Ragu, the issue here is really simple: Was the Chronicle using good judgement when it a) granted anonymity to Ellerman without adequately questioning his motives, and b) went back to the source again fter it gained full knowledge that the source was using the newspaper to trick the judicial system?

    You and others have consistently and, in my opinion rather unsuccessfully, been trying to find ways to rationalize or mitigate the Chronicle's actions. Your (understandable) empathy with the plight of the reporters has clouded your ability to objectively examine the situation.

    By the way, I believe the overall Balco reporting by the Chronicle remains excellent and would have suffered little had it not granted Ellerman the ability to use the newspaper for his illegal purposes.

    I don't think it's far-fetched to think Ellerman was able to sell this angle to the reporters and that the reporters were sincerely convinced by him in the beginning. After the reporters became aware of Ellerman's real motivations, I believe they felt there was no turning back, so they probably decided to stick with their story and convinced themselves that, despite being played, there was this greater good being served.

    The problem is that the greater good still would have been served perfectly well had they never granted anonymity to Ellerman and their ability to report the full story wouldn't have been compromised.

    Once the Chronicle folks knew they couldn't turn back, they convinced themselves they had some type of obligation to replace the judicial system's wisdom in meting out justice with their own. Sure, they took on an agenda.

    It became insufficient for them to merely report a great story. They convinced themselves that they should be prosecutor, judge and jury because they weren't satisfied that the prosecution was focused on the distributors. They decided by themselves that it was a miscarriage of justice if athletes weren't sufficiently held to public ridicule. Of course, the convenient part of this belief was that it would also help them sell more newspapers and books.
     
  9. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    Why couldn't someone like Jason Giambi sue for damages? His loss of endorsements as a result would be quantifiable.
     
  10. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Sue on what grounds? They were his words. What would his argument be? There's no libel or slander here.

    Now that I think about it, I am fairly sure there can't be grounds for him to sue (but I am not a lawyer). There is no legal guarantee that his testimony before a GJ will remain secret. That testimony can be used in open court if an indictment is handed down and there is a trial. So obviously, there can be no expectation of your testimony remaining secret (nor should there be in a free and open country). The government can parade it into an open court room, if it wants to. I believe Giambi had two choices: Tell the truth under oath, or plead the fifth (anyone who knows the law in detail, though, please correct me, if that is wrong).
     
  11. 21

    21 Well-Known Member

    Like Kindred, I have been a staunch supporter of the Chronicle, believing we don't know the whole story, and willing to give the benefit of the doubt. But every time you post about this, you give me something to think about.

    Questions:

    1)
    'Punished' how? Legal charges? Firing? Public and professional censure? What remedy are you looking for?

    2) I could be wrong, but I get the impression from your posts that you feel Ellerman was the only leak. Other sources have suggested Conte may have also been a source of information (although perhaps Ellerman's guilt exhonerates Conte), and that the prosecution was also spilling information--that Ellerman leaked because the prosecution was doing the same. Thoughts?
     
  12. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    Hearst lawyers told the government that Conte wasn't the source of the leak, according to this Chronicle story from July 6, 2006:

    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/20/BAGSEK25241.DTL

    In a June 21 filing, prosecutors pointed to Conte as a possible source of BALCO grand jury transcripts that were cited in Chronicle articles, saying e-mails seized by federal agents at his home showed that he gave Fainaru-Wada information about the grand jury proceedings and that the reporter asked for the transcripts.

    References to the e-mails were blacked out from public copies of the government's filing but could be read when copied into a word-processing program.

    In response, lawyers for Hearst said on July 9 that they repeatedly told prosecutors that no documents in the newspaper's possession -- including the Conte e-mails -- identified the source or sources of the grand jury transcripts. In context, their statements amounted to a denial that Conte was a source, a point repeated in Tuesday's filing.


    To me that eliminated one of the two loose cannons in the case. The remaining loose cannon at that point was Noviitzky who had demonstrated a distasteful arrogance thoughout the Balco investigation and who, according to the Playboy article, began his part of the investigation with a motive of bringing down Barry Bonds.
     
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