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How do we feel about the Chron guys now?

Discussion in 'Journalism topics only' started by SF_Express, Feb 19, 2007.

  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Two things, Buck. The cover your ass thing is legit. I'm not asking you to do a job you don't want to. It's why I said on all of those posts, "put any conditions you want on your source relationships." Someone I know has been monitoring this thread, but not posting, and was jokingly calling people "namby pambies." He couldn't believe these are journalists. His words were something like, "Don't they realize you have to roll around in the dirt to get stuff that is worth a damn? These are people waiting for shit to fall into their laps." He was being comically gruff, but he has a point. I'm not criticizing you if you don't feel that way. If covering your ass is the most important thing, you should cover your ass and not dig into potentially messy stuff. Seriously.

    And no, I wasn't making an ends justify the means argument. Don't break the law in pursuit of a story. Don't do anything that violates your ethical code. Don't put people at serious risk to get a story. Hell, there are plenty of means that should cause you to put on the brakes. But other people's behavior--or worse, their POTENTIAL behavior? I can't control, nor do I think I should have to, control other people's actions. They're responsible for their actions. A journalist should be concerned primarily about one thing. Getting it right. If a source causes you to get it wrong, then you have some problems. It's also incumbent upon you to then get it right. Even though the means matter to me, those are ends I can live with in most cases.
     
  2. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    Actually, there is such a thing as an altruistic motive. Some people want to get information out that will help good people or right an injustice.

    Here's a new interview from the Business of Baseball Web site in which Lance Williams' comments suggest just the scenario I describe:

    http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=834&Itemid=80

    SBR: Now you had thousands of documents and hundreds of interviews that you did but then you came across a grand jury transcript. How important was getting that transcript into your newspaper stories and ultimately your book?

    Williams: Well, I’ll tell you being able to quote the grand jury testimony was the element that just hammered home the proof of what we were writing. There was sort of reader resistance to these stories in a way, I mean people don’t want to believe bad things about their sports heroes and we had written already that Bonds had used banned drugs of course what the feds were learning, but to be able to quote the athletes words it removed the doubt in the minds of people who were interested in the story. So I thought it was critically important. We would have never had to resort to this if the Federal Government had laid their cards face up on the table, but they did go to great lengths to protect the wealthy athletes names who were caught up in this thing, their names were drawn up in the court files and redacted, but the truth does want to be free and people on all sides of the case wanted to help us because they thought it was wrong to cover for the sports star.


    LW certainly seems to believe sources can be altruistic.And of course, Ellerman turned around and used the reporting of that leak as part of his scheme to seek dismissal. Yes, I believe Ellerman was scheming. And no I don't think Kindred or anyone else has "shot" the theory "to hell."
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    You are obtuse and I honestly don't think it's deliberate.

    Yes, I am sure there were lots of people who wanted to see the truth come out. That's why you work with sources! Reporters rely on the person who has info, who is willing to share the truth. And that is great.

    But people ALWAYS have motives--some sweet, some sinister. Everyone has a motive. And that quote from Williams doesn't mean the nonsense you just came up.

    "People on all sides," which you bolded, by definition means that he was dealing with various people with agendas. The prosecutor, for example, may have shared some info because he "thought it was wrong to cover for the sports star." I don't doubt that. I also know no one is going to put that sentence in the usage section next to the word "altruism."

    This is a dumb conversation.
     
  4. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    A couple of posts ago you told me, Cran, No one has "altruistic" motives. Please make up your mind.

    In the interview he assigns the single agenda: wanted to help us because they thought it was wrong to cover for the sports star. Personally, that sounds a little naive to me and I would have questioned that motive.

    Please explain how "people on all sides of the case wanted to help us because they thought it was wrong to cover for the sports star" can be intrepreted as anything but describing an altruistic motive.
     
  5. Flying Headbutt

    Flying Headbutt Moderator Staff Member

    From a Washington Post online chat the other day.

    S. Rockville, Md.: Once you saw comments from your source calling for sanctions because of the leaks, did you feel like you were being used to manipulate the judicial process or did you expect him to behave as he did?

    Lance Williams: Mark and I cannot comment on anything in connection with the identity of any of our confidential sources -- we promised not to betray our sources, and we will keep our promises.

    In general, we would have been delighted to rely on the public record to write the true story of the BALCO scandal and the role of the elite athletes in it. Unfortunately, the government refused to make information about Bonds et al public - affidavits were redacted or rewritten to remove the names of the elite athletes, the indictments didn't mention them, and so forth.

    And so to get the story, we had to turn to confidential sources, who provided us with true information, including transcripts. Without their assistance, the truth would never have been known.

    Lance
     
  6. creamora

    creamora Member

    Lance Williams says, "We would have never had to resort to this if the Federal Government had laid their cards face up on the table, but they did go to great lengths to protect the wealthy athletes names who were caught up in this thing, their names were drawn up in the court files and redacted, but the truth does want to be free...."

    This sounds like the Chronicle simply decided that they were going to fight fire with fire and take the law into their own hands and punish the athletes. "We would never had to resort to this.." Is he suggesting that the government's behavior in essence forced the Chroncle into making their decision to help Ellerman break the law? Williams sounds very arrogant in this interview to me.

    creamora
     
  7. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    I agree. It sounds like they were unhappy with the results of the judicial system and considered it their duty to override the system and mete out punishment. I didn't realize this was part of a journalist's job.
     
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks FH.
     
  9. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    I agree also. It seems like the Chronicle wanted to interject themselves into the legal process.

    We all know that there was a huge hunt going on to find any information possible to implicate Barry Bonds.

    As time goes on Whitlocks theory becomes more plausible.
     
  10. creamora

    creamora Member

    Lance Williams says, "Unfortunately, the government refused to make information about Bonds et al public - affidavits were redacted or rewritten to remove the names of the elite athletes, the indictments didn't mention them, and so forth."

    "And so to get the story, we had to turn to confidential sources, who provided us with true information, including transcripts. Without their assistance, the truth would never have been known."

    These statements by Williams are complete and total bullshit! If the BALCO case had gone to trial it's likely that much of the information contained in the GJ transcripts would have come out because the athletes would have been forced to testify publically. Willams is basically saying, "Because the government wasn't doing the job the way we thought it should be done, we decided to take the law into our own hands and do whatever it took to punish these athletes." These statement by Williams are outrageous. And the Chronicle has to have given him the liberty to be out there making these kinds of statements. Did the appearance that Williams made together with Fainaru-Wada on The Tonight Show go to his head? I'm shock at his completely over the top attitude. Thoughts?
     
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    creamora, That's ridiculous. You really have a hard-on for these guys, eh? I just don't get why your judgment would be clouded to the point of silly arguments, such as that one.

    It wasn't incumbent upon Joe Sportsfan to sit and wait for the judicial process to let him know if the athletes he watched were using performance-enhancing drugs. For one thing, there was no guarantee that the judicial system would ever produce that info and make it public. It's also not the JOB of the judicial system. If the testimony was being kept hidden, affadavits were being rewritten and the names were purposely being kept out of indictments, it's pretty clear that the judicial system was not primarily concerned with informing people.

    For another, the truth is the truth, regardless of what the government was doing or not doing. Williams wasn't saying the mess you just extrapolated from his statement. But even if he WAS saying something like, "I'm not happy with what's being made publicly available from the government investigation, I am going to find the truth myself," well, that is fantastic!!! That is why a free press is called "the fourth estate." It's another check and balance. And it's perfectly legal for Williams, or anyone else, to try to find out the truth and inform others.

    There's nothing wrong with reporters out there chasing the truth. That's a great thing. If you disagree about that, I understand that Vladamir Putin is doing a decent job of making the Russian media into a state-run puppet that buries evidence of his misdeeds. You might want to check the place out.
     
  12. creamora

    creamora Member

    Ragu,

    We obviously disagree about a lot of these issues. I guess we'll have to wait and see how others in the world of journalism respond to these very bold statements recently made by Williams. It's my opinion that Fainaru-Wada, Williams and the Chronicle have stepped over the line. I think they need to be held accountable for their disregard for the judicial process as well as their violations of people's rights. I think that there are more that one "big picture."

    creamora
     
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