"It's a number"

Re: "Its's a number"

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree (Ol' Dirty) Bastard. Perhaps slaves should have fought for their own freedom, instead of the Union battling the South to not only to keep it part of the country but also to free slaves. Perhaps Europe should have battled the Nazis without help, instead of joining the fray and helping end that terrible time. You say the Iraqis can strike for themselves, but I disagree with that. Why couldn't slaves fight for themselves? Why couldn't Europe overpower the Nazis by themselves? Because they didn't have the power, and thankfully, there was somebody willing to step in and end the evil. I think we've stepped in and ended the evil in Iraq. Maybe we were too late. Maybe it was fruitless at the time. But the world is a safer place without Saddam Hussein in power. It might not be safer now, but it's safer in the long run.

With that, I'm calling it a day. Thanks for the spirited debate. Hopefully nobody became too angry or agitated with me. I'm glad this didn't degenerate into a negative, name-calling thread.

For me, I'm going to head to a bar, get drunk and get laid. I'm pretty sure in Iraq, they'd behead me for that. Thank God for freedom.

 

Re: "Its's a number"

SC: Good, well-reasoned posts. Lotta food for thought there. And congrats for not slinking into the muck, like so many of us (including myself) can't help but do.

Keep 'er up.

 

Re: "Its's a number"


Wow. This thread sure turned into a surprise.

Here is a column by the exceptional Joe Galloway on the Iraq vs. Afghanistan sleight of hand, for those interested:

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/special_packages/galloway/14817938.htm

 

Re: "Its's a number"

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

We're not teaching them much about democracy by forcefully invading their country and occupying it while they "figure it out." Let's lead by example.

 

Re: "Its's a number"

SC, it's simply too late now to boil this war down to a "one day I can tell my kids about what Iraq used to be like ..." rationalization.

We're not there to free the Iraqis from a dictator. We're not there to bring or spread democracy. We're not there because a bad man was doing bad things to helpless people.

We're there because the bad man had weapons that would hurt us. We're there because "we're fighting them (the terrorists) over there so we don't have to fight them here." We're there because Iraq and Saddam had a connection to 9-11.

You want to make yourself feel better about this war by rationalizing what you someday might feel, feel free. But don't expect me and several others to jump on board. This isn't the reasoning we were sold. This isn't the reason 2,500 Americans have now died. This isn't the reason 10,000 Iraqis are dead.

There are far worse places in the world where far worse crimes are being committed against innocent people than Iraq in 2003. One of those, of course, is Iraq in 2006. There are far bigger threats to this country and its people than Iraq -- both then and now.

When you put American lives on the line, you don't get to make mistakes. You don't get to say, oops, we screwed up, but hey, we can still get one decent thing accomplished. You don't get to come back later on and completely rewrite the reasons for declaring war and the goals of that war. And nobody, I don't care who you are or what your political affiliation, should ever look back and be proud of this shit. NOT EVER.

 

Re: "Its's a number"

dog --
SC's a decent, humane guy, and I wish he were vice-president instead of the guy we have now.
And you can make mistakes with American troops. But you better damn well own up to them, and not toss good lives after bad.


UPDATE -- I'm linking to this because I LOVE the note from the soldier in the lede. The rest? Ugh.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/16/iraq_debate/

 

Re: "Its's a number"

I believe the "conservative" estimate is 30,000. And perhaps up to 100,000.

Each one with about three dozen friends and/or family members who have every reason in the world to hate our guts and dedicate their lives to killing any American they see.

Makes for quite the hostile environment . . . not even accounting for the OTHER terrorists and insurgents making things rough over there.

 

Re: "Its's a number"

I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I can't help it and I'll tell you why. I was sitting in a bar tonight with a guy who served in Iraq. And with what I posted today fresh in my mind and my personal opinions, I sat and talked with this guy for three hours. Nice guy, married, all that stuff. He's in my town, because he's training to go back to Iraq for the four time.

Now, I realize this guy doesn't represent everybody, but I asked him, point-blank, his opinion on Iraq, and I sat back and listened. This guy has been in Iraq for three sessions, once as a member of the military, twice as a private contractor. And what he told me reaffirms everything I believe in.

I asked him what he thought about the war in Iraq and you know what he told me? I, personally, am amazed. He looked me dead in the eye and said that until you go over there and see soldiers or contractors building schools for kids who have never been to school, you don't understand. Until you fly on a Blackhawk and watch them drop toys into a town, you'll never understand. Until you've walked down a street, watched a man run up to you, thinking he's a gunman, and he gets to you and he hugs you, you'll never understand.

I'll admittedly say I'm drunk right now. I've been out with friends partying it up all night, but talking to this guy left me speechless (and that's really hard to do). I've heard people from the war speak of their times, but I think my dialogue today on this board, coupled with what he said really hit me. It really did.

I've never been a guy who gets into many of the political threads on here, because they always digress into negative name-calling. I enjoyed the fact that we were able to hold a discussion about the war. And I never, despite my ramblings and posts here, thought I'd meet a guy tonight who has served in Iraq. I wish I could make this up, but I'm not that creative.

I've exchanged e-mail addresses with the guy because he's a big high school sports fan, and I'm going to keep him up to date. He leaves for Iraq again (as a private contractor) in two weeks.

I know there are people who disagree with the war. I know there are people who disagree with the way the war has been handled (hell, I'm one of them). But I met a guy, 36 years old, who is heading to Iraq for the fourth time as a private contractor working with electronics (he's going over with the Marines). And you know what, he's not scared. He's not afraid. He's not worried. You know why? The last thing he said to me as I walked out of the bar was this: "Two years ago, I met a little girl, about 12 years old, who told me she was going to be a doctor one day so she could fix all the soldiers. I'm going to see how she's doing."

I had an opinion before on the war. This guy, Dave, has strengthened it.

P.S. Thanks for the kind words Fenian_Bastard. You and I, I think, want the same thing. While we may have different views, I think we want the same thing. And I wish (although I'm sure it'll never happen) we could see people cross the aisle and work together for the greater good. I'm an optimist. I'm 23, grew up in South Carolina and view the world like any educated 23-year-old would. Maybe I'll feel different 10, 20 or 30 years down the road. But for now, I'm going to hold onto my optimism. In this crazy world, it might be all I have.

 

Re: "Its's a number"

SC:

Reaching across the aisle for the greater good (bipartisanship, I think it was called . . . ) was a fairly-regular thing in the Good Old
Days on a number of vitally important issues . . . before a collection of circus clowns, through a devious political strategy
designed to divide rather than unite, snagged both legislative houses, and decided to ram considerable broadly-unpalatable
horsedung down the public's throat, because their big-business bankrollers wanted it Just That Way . . . and, unfortunately, that story ain't over . . . peace be with you . . .

 

Re: "Its's a number"

Seemed like a lot of that went bye-bye when William Jefferson Clinton became president. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Re: "Its's a number"